Author Topic: Templates and racial multiple forms.  (Read 555 times)

Offline Silveron

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #20: May 15, 2017, 08:48:35 PM »
It's like Silveron thinks the option to become a fluffybunny is modified by something that doesn't affect Special Abilities, or even if it did he illogically thinks he can apply X+2 to a later used set-to-Y ability, probably both even through you can't on either one of those.

The bunny example was using polymorph and I did say it is more of a massive change.  As for your X/Y, if you wanted to say that upon level up if I spend the +1 to STR/DEX/CON on sparrow that I could not go back and also spend it on Human form, I completely agree with that. This is different then Feats/Flaws that are always active. If you have Greater Strength and your Str is reset to  1 you still have the Feat, it does not go away. Same with Flaw, as a DM, if a player had -2 to Str flaw and changed into a sparrow. I would give them a Str 0 and per rules say they are too weak to even lift their own body. I always have written down my racial adjustments (including template) down on my character sheet. I see those same as the feats. If the stats reset they would still apply. I see no rules that say otherwise, but I admit it depend how you see the rules. Race and template changes have never been a called a point system by any group I have known over they years. They are always treated as a modification to base points.

I have already said I am willing to agree to disagree. I am not trying to convert the unwilling. Are you not happy unless you do?

In either case there are four, now five, people contributing to this thread.

Hmmm, and two, no three of them are in the Handbook club. Funny that.

And some how this is a thing.
My question was do templates carry over into to different forms? I think the consensus is: Yes.

That was my bad. I am sorry. Distracted and didn't notice I never finished my thought or deleted it by mistake. I had meant to have under that: Except for forms that list new base scores.

I have been talking about more then just Hegneyokai from the start. For Tibbit the ability scores stay, as is, upon change of form except for making the change of -8 to Str and +2 added to Dex. So the changes from template to stats remain in effect. No one has said otherwise, just sparrow, sparrow, sparrow. So took that, at least for others then Hengeyokai, there was an agreement they stayed.






Edit: Oh, quick off topic question for anyone. I swear in one of the Dragon mags there is an good undead race that can reproduce by placeing one of there own bones into a corpse.

(Insert massive amounts of "Boneing" and related jokes here)

Anyone know what this race is called/where it is?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 09:06:50 PM by Silveron »

Offline Silveron

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #21: May 17, 2017, 07:58:28 AM »
Wish I could take credit for it myself but one of the people in my group last night just explained templates to another newer player in the absolute best way I have ever heard.

"Templates change your race, you now basically become bi or multiracial."

If you look at templates like that then the inherent template + base race combo is now just treated as your whole new race and can not be separated.

So, baring any disagreement about ability scores, all other factors such as feats, skills, special abilities, etc., should carry over simply as your race.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #22: May 19, 2017, 02:15:42 AM »
that's your problem, you think that your 'race' applies basically everything to your alternate form also.

it doesn't.

the alternate form is not your base race. its just that, an alternate form.
the ability tells you what you keep and what you don't.
but that doesn't mean that the alternate form can't be augmented at all. stuff like cat's grace, etc. can still grant you bonuses as long as you qualify (as with everything).

ex. a malaugrym does not have neh-infinite base races, but it does have neh-infinite forms.
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Offline Silveron

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #23: May 21, 2017, 08:08:50 AM »
that's your problem, you think that your 'race' applies basically everything to your alternate form also.

it doesn't.

the alternate form is not your base race. its just that, an alternate form.
the ability tells you what you keep and what you don't.
but that doesn't mean that the alternate form can't be augmented at all. stuff like cat's grace, etc. can still grant you bonuses as long as you qualify (as with everything).

ex. a malaugrym does not have neh-infinite base races, but it does have neh-infinite forms.

No, I see what your saying. That's why I said baring any disagreement about ability scores.

The better way to say it is not that the templates carry over to the new from, its that they are never lost in the first place.

Alternate From says nothing about loosing feats, special ability's, skills, quality's gained from type/subtype, etc. Just as you said. This is why I said there seems to be no argument that Tibbit retains everything, because they are the not same as Hegneyokai's ability score change over. They have whatever the modified strength score would be -8.

As for Hegneyokai there is basically two ways to see it.

The Hegneyokai's base stats are changed to those on the table, when in animal form, and are subject to ability modifiers (such as racial/template modifiers, which are not a point buy system, since you have no say about the # increased/reduced or where they go, unlike the entirety of how a point buy system works).

The second way is, you see the Hegneyokai's animal form as if its a second entity and the base scores are listed as is without any modification from race/template. Even though any modification to INT/WIS/CHR might still remain in effect because they carry over unaltered.

I have always seen both these ways. I am just not arrogant enough to claim that my interpretation of the rules are absolute and no one else can see them any other way. That's why I have repeatedly said I am willing to agree to disagree. No matter what is said on this forum its not up to anyone on here. Its up to the DM of anyone's game.

Feats however, are a different matter.

Quote from: Player's Handbook, page 87
A character either has a feat or does not.

Regardless of form, Feats should be constant (because the are also not a point buy system.) Does not matter if its a Feat+ or Flaw-, it should still remain in effect regardless of form like the rest do. You can take Flyby Attack feat and it would be completely useless in humanoid form, but it still counts as a feat, and if you gain flying from a potion/magic item/spell, you still gain access to it because the forms do not have separate entry's for feats.

Kind of like if it was -1 STR ability dmg from dealing with an undead or being poisoned. Change in from does not cure it, you would just be even more worse off because animal form has even less STR to be drained. It would remain, no matter what from is taken, until its cured or one day passed. You would still be poisoned.

But... Hey again, to each their own. I see it as nothing more trying to cheat, but then again some DM's allow PUN-PUN shenanigans. While others would scream "NO WAY!" at you as soon as you got the first Pun out of your mouth.

C'est la vie

« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 08:14:02 AM by Silveron »

Offline Tshern

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #24: May 21, 2017, 12:19:18 PM »
As long as the house rules work for you and your group, there is absolutely nothing wrong with those.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #25: May 21, 2017, 12:24:51 PM »
Just going to pick one line here since most of it is bullshit that's already been addressed.
Alternate From says nothing about loosing feats, special ability's, skills, quality's gained from type/subtype, etc.
A. Affirmative conclusion from a negative premise (illicit negative) is a formal fallacy that is committed when a categorical syllogism has a positive conclusion, but one or two negative premises. For example: No fish are dogs, and no dogs can fly, therefore all fish can fly.
B. "Alternate Form: Hengeyokai can change shape, assuming one of three possible forms. This supernatural ability functions like the polymorph other spell, but a hengeyokai can change form a number of times per day equal to 1 plus his character level" ~OA
"The subject retains its own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities. The subject can cast spells for which it has components. It needs a humanlike voice for verbal components and humanlike hands for somatic components. The subject does not gain the spell-like abilities of its new form. The subject does not gain the supernatural abilities or the extraordinary abilities of the new creature." ~Polymorph Other
"Deleted spells: Polymorph Other (see Polymorph, Baleful Polymorph)" ~3.5 Update Booklet
"The subject takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows <list that doesn't include skills> With those exceptions, the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features." ~Baleful Polymorph
"This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. ... The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form." ~3.5 Polymorph
"You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. ... You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels." ~Alter Self
And for bonus points, as you were told on the last page: "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature that has a template." ~MMV & "A creature can’t use one of these abilities to take the form of a creature with a template." ~RC header to Alternate Form / Change Shape.

So yeah, as a matter of fact you do lose some of those. So your statement is wrong, illogical, and without any citations to support. But go on and keep telling your self w/e you want, it's not the first lie you've told your self today. :)

Also, let's continue your education here.
Hmmm, and two, no three of them are in the Handbook club. Funny that.
Occam's razor (also Ockham's razor; Latin: lex parsimoniae "law of parsimony") is a problem-solving principle attributed to William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347), who was an English Franciscan friar, scholastic philosopher, and theologian. His principle can be interpreted as stating Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

So I present to you two things.
A. Silveron is so important to us that we dropped everything we were doing in order to have an emergency meeting in our totally secret elitist club where we motioned, seconded, and approved all of us jumping in here and telling Silveron s/he's wrong no matter what because we're all asshats like that with literately nothing else to do.
B. Most Handbook people on here have an indepth knowledge of the rules, for example a multibook (oa, 3.0 phb, update, 3.5 phb) quote chain or other references (mmv/rc) that proves you wrong, due to their prolonged interactions of hundreds of people on multiple forums and the research required to create even a basic guide. And you simply happen to be wrong.
You're (in)ability to properly select the right one will speak volumes over the type of person you choose to be.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 04:46:09 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #26: May 21, 2017, 06:56:44 PM »
Tbh, I just got my Handbook Writer tag for administering the index thread. Not sure what rest of the Handbook Writer Mafia does in the dimly lit rooms behind the butcher's shop.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #27: May 22, 2017, 03:17:15 PM »
Mine was for an attempt to consolidate world records.... right before I switched fully to PF.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #28: May 22, 2017, 05:33:55 PM »
Mine was because I actually wrote a handbook or two, including both my first and greatest on Weapons of Legacy. Being a one hit wonder I moved to simple lists for the most part after that through. That being said I do have a couple and I gave Bunkos a much needed update and sorted it. Most of the stuff I do now is additions to Class Boosters which is updated at an extremely slow rate.

Buuuuut. When every single post you make is a gift of knowledge unto others it's hard to limit one's self to Handbooks only.  :P
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Offline Silveron

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #29: May 23, 2017, 08:52:33 AM »
To use your own Affirmative from an Negative premise: You left out Wild Shape and Feline transformation and a few others I am sure.  To site all forms of transformation as being in play when the only one that is is Alternate Form.

"The subject retains its own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities. The subject can cast spells for which it has components. It needs a humanlike voice for verbal components and humanlike hands for somatic components. The subject does not gain the spell-like abilities of its new form. The subject does not gain the supernatural abilities or the extraordinary abilities of the new creature." ~Polymorph Other

Congratz, we are back to the 4th post where according to your interpretation a werewolf losses the supernatural abilities of Alternate Form (SU) and is now forever a wolf.

Alternate From is not Polymorph Self/Other/Object/Baleful. "Like Polymorph" is given as an example. If you wish to go over all 3.0-3.5 content and rewrite all "like" examples as to be interpreted as "WORD FOR WORD ONLY" maybe that can be your next handbook.

Alternate From is also not Alter Self. Where your pulling that from I have no idea.

All your citations are spells. We are not using spells to transform we are using Race SU ability. So..um...can ya...um...see the...um....FLAW... In trying to say we lose SU. Even Wild Shape is SU. Good thing Alternate From is not Ploymorph or no change in shape would be possible.

Claiming I used Affirmative from an Negative premise then turning around and doing it your self is cute, bravo.

And for bonus points, as you were told on the last page: "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature that has a template." ~MMV & "A creature can’t use one of these abilities to take the form of a creature with a template." ~RC header to Alternate Form / Change Shape.

As I was told??? You mean as I said in post: 3, 5, 16. You conveniently left out the second part.

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well. -  Alternate Form (SU)

Ouroboros. Template change carry's over even when it says it does not. Per Alternate Form, Aquatic Druid Wild Shape (SU) into a Bear. No change in template added subtype takes place, The Bear is still aquatic subtype and can breath underwater.

Simple rule shortsightedness as why 3.0 you could gain a template for free, but added later in 3.5. Yet again still shortsightedness because they didn't take inherent templates into consideration.

Dm's ruling, as with most things, as if inherent template would carry over in full. RAW ruling that part of it does because type and subtype can make significant changes.

So your statement is wrong, illogical, and without any citations to support.

DItto. I can cite all kinds of irrelevant data too but, no need to, you did already.

So your whole post of irrelevant spells does nothing but prove my point or did you not even notice you were saying all (SU) change in forms would lose (SU) ability and be permanent. You kind of dropped the ball in that argument.

This feeble attempt of an argument seems like your just trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

Your just not happy with leaving it up to the DM.

You have to be right.

So fine, your right.

You are the unquestionable ruler of all D&D and everyone who ever plays D&D, past, present, and future, must all defer to only your interpretation of the rules and are not allowed to have an opinion of their own. Nor are the DM's allowed to make any rulings on their own. Even those whose have never heard of you or minmax board. Seems you have plenty of free time to take on this task.

I on the other hand, have better things to do.

So feel free to post another weak argument just so you can claim the last word. Its all yours.

I hope it stakes your ego.


P.S. Speaking of Handbooks there are quite a few links to WOTC site that are no longer valid. Idk if they dropped all of it or if they just rearranged things so url needs fixed. Does no one do upkeep on them?

Offline Tshern

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #30: May 23, 2017, 10:13:13 AM »
The RAW readings have been elaborated on here quite a bit, but as for RAI:
You are the unquestionable ruler of all D&D and everyone who ever plays D&D, past, present, and future, must all defer to only your interpretation of the rules and are not allowed to have an opinion of their own. Nor are the DM's allowed to make any rulings on their own
As I said earlier, if the ruling works for you and your group, that sounds good enough to me.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #31: May 23, 2017, 11:41:52 AM »
You are the unquestionable ruler of all D&D and everyone who ever plays D&D, past, present, and future, must all defer to only your interpretation of the rules and are not allowed to have an opinion of their own.
Oh you sweet talker you, do go on.  :)
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Offline Chemus

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #32: May 23, 2017, 02:03:50 PM »
[snip]...
P.S. Speaking of Handbooks there are quite a few links to WOTC site that are no longer valid. Idk if they dropped all of it or if they just rearranged things so url needs fixed. Does no one do upkeep on them?

WotC killed the forum entirely. No way to fix those links anymore. The OP has to be the one to edit their posts, usually, so appending "archive." to the beginning of all the links to WotC web enhancements and such would be for...a mod maybe? They don't usually have the time AFAIK.

I usually just copy the link, then add the archive myself to get there.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #33: May 23, 2017, 02:08:10 PM »
I usually just copy the link, then add the archive myself to get there.
Many of the archives are currently down as well forcing you to use archiving websites :(
What would happen if you were to climb to what you think my ego is and jump to what your post says your IQ is?
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Offline Silveron

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #34: May 25, 2017, 05:58:05 AM »
[snip]...
P.S. Speaking of Handbooks there are quite a few links to WOTC site that are no longer valid. Idk if they dropped all of it or if they just rearranged things so url needs fixed. Does no one do upkeep on them?

WotC killed the forum entirely. No way to fix those links anymore. The OP has to be the one to edit their posts, usually, so appending "archive." to the beginning of all the links to WotC web enhancements and such would be for...a mod maybe? They don't usually have the time AFAIK.

I usually just copy the link, then add the archive myself to get there.
I usually just copy the link, then add the archive myself to get there.
Many of the archives are currently down as well forcing you to use archiving websites :(

Oh, tyvm.

There used to be a really good race handbook I used on here but when I went to look for it, it was gone. I thought it must have been one of those links.

The actual premise of our next game is our group is going to be a traveling animal circus. You know, dogs that dance on hind legs, house cat jumping through flaming hoops, bear that rides a tricycle, and some more monstrous creature seemingly tamed into preforming some trick. Like a lion tamer sticking his head into a lions mouth.

Except the animals are all the players in different forms. We have a few henchmen who stay with the circus at all times, but kind of like mon-fri the players adventure/quest/do tasks for townsfolk, sat-sun big performances to earn the group money. Part of the Mon-Fri includes back alley deals being watched over by the innocent cat cleaning itself. The little bird on the mayors windowsill watching where he hides his gold. Taking in all the little useful information, like when the Baker goes down to his shop to start the bread for the day, the neighbors teenage son creeps up the back steps and joins the Bakers wife in bed.

Intel gathering and small weekday performances for kids is how the DM is dealing with the 3 floaters we have in our game. Every game ends in town or camped. So if someone does not show up to next game, they pack muled our loot back to town to sell, buy items for us, do performances. Fits into the story of the game better then just saying one of our party has sudden onset agoraphobia and now lives in our bag of holding. Plus at all times we are earning gold or intel that can lead to gold, as well as he can give the missing players exp for what they do.

We do not want to all be Druids and we are starting at ECL 3. So that's why the topic on racial alternate forms.

So far we have:

Imp - Alternate Form: Alternate Form (Su): An imp can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar. (DM allows them to be Neutral and we have had someone play one before.)

Quasit - Alternate Form (Su): A quasit can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each quasit can assume one or two forms from the following list: bat, Small or Medium monstrous centipede, toad, and wolf.

Tibbit - Feline Transformation (Su): At will, as a standard action, a Tibbit can transform into a house cat.

Hengeyokai - Alternate Form (Su): Possible animal forms include badger, carp, cat, crab, crane, dog, fox, hare, monkey, raccoon dog, rat, sparrow, and weasel. (Picked at creation.)


For Something more monstrous:

Pseudonatural Creature Template: Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque tentacled mass or another appropriately gruesome form determined by the Dungeon Master.

Then there is also Anthropomorphic Animals from Savage Species. If anyone wants to just stay animalish all the time.


I like the premise, we have talked about animal party before since more then once we have had 2x ranger and 2x druids.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #35: May 25, 2017, 09:03:33 AM »
The Mulhorandi divine minion template can get you lions and bears, as well as snakes, hawks, crocodiles etc. With the Master of many forms PrC your party could be more than animals, if desired, and eventually get to having ex qualities.
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Offline Silveron

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Re: Templates and racial multiple forms.
« Reply #36: Yesterday at 07:44:06 AM »
Oh, thank you.

Didn't know about Mulhorandi divine minion. The guy who plays Druid was already talking about Master of Many Forms. The Ranger already knows of a build for maxing Animal Companion.

I just found out about.

Slyth
• –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom. Slyths are wise in the ways of nature and reasonably agile, but their amorphous forms are not especially strong.
• Medium size. Slyths have no bonuses or penalties due to size.
• A slyth’s base land speed is 30 feet. A slyth in amorphous form (see below) has a swim speed of 30 feet.
• Alternate Form (Su): As a standard action, a slyth can change shape, assuming an amorphous form. Any equipment the slyth is wearing or carrying transforms to become part of this new form. Material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though the slyth’s Dexterity bonus, deflection bonus, and any armor bonuses from force effects (for example, from the mage armor spell) still apply. In her amorphous form, she cannot be flanked or stunned and she is immune to critical hits, but she can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components. (This limitation does not rule out spells that the slyth may have prepared using the metamagic feats Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and Still Spell.) The slyth loses all other supernatural abilities while in amorphous form, and her magic items cease functioning. Her amorphous form is nearly fluid and boneless, enabling her to pass through holes or narrow openings as small as 2 inches in diameter. Resuming her normal form is a full-round action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A slyth can remain in amorphous form for up to 10 minutes per class level, but after resuming her normal form she cannot change again for as long as she spent in amorphous form.

• Water Breathing (Ex): A slyth can breathe underwater indefinitely.
• Immunities (Ex): Because of their shapechanging abilities, slyths are immune to polymorphing and poison.
• Resistances (Ex): A slyth has sonic resistance 5.
• Racial Bonuses: A slyth has a +4 racial bonus on Disguise, Escape Artist, and Survival checks.
• Weapon Familiarity: A slyth may treat flutter blades (see Chapter 5: Equipment and Magic Items) as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Elven, Gnome, and Terran (or by character region).
• Favored Class: Druid.
• Level Adjustment: +2.

This would make a great Warlock for a dungeon crawl since they do not lose (Sp).