Author Topic: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting  (Read 6735 times)

Offline ariasderros

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Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Topic Start: September 02, 2012, 09:57:55 PM »
As it says on the tin, I am trying to figure out the various ways of bypassing Immunity to Mind-Affecting.

What has this immunity?
  • Constructs
  • Plants
  • Undead
  • Swarms*
  • Mindless
  • Magical protection
  • Specific Creatures

Note that Oozes and Vermin are normally Mindless, and thus anything that bypasses Mindless causes you to affect them.
Swarms are immune to single target mind-affecting abilities unless it has a Hive Mind.
There are creatures that are immune on multiple levels, such as the fact that Requiem would allow a Bard to use Fascinate on a Lich, but not a Zombie, due to the fact that the Zombie is also mindless (he literally has immunity twice).

There are four different categories of abilities I'm trying to figure out how to get past the immunity.
  • Bardic Music (Fascinate)
  • Spells (Dominate Monster)
  • Spell like / Supernatural abilities (Naga's Charm Gaze)
  • Extraordinary Abilities (can't think of any right now)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 10:00:37 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Maat Mons

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #1: September 02, 2012, 10:29:27 PM »
The greater humanoid essence spell (Races of Eberron) makes constructs vulnerable to mind-affecting effects. 

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #2: September 03, 2012, 02:38:29 AM »
The greater humanoid essence spell (Races of Eberron) makes constructs vulnerable to mind-affecting effects.

I did not know about that one.
Spark of Life (SpC) works for undead.
Magical Protection can be dispelled / disjoined.
Dark Speech works for swarms, in a way.

All of these work to remove the immunity.
Requiem and Green Ear both allow for Bardic Music to bypass immunity for their respective creature types.
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Offline Solo

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #3: September 03, 2012, 02:42:23 AM »
I believe either Nightmare Spinner or Dread Witch gets to ignore immunity to fear.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #4: September 03, 2012, 02:46:42 AM »
I believe either Nightmare Spinner or Dread Witch gets to ignore immunity to fear.

Fear =/= Mind-Affecting

You can have Immunity to fear, but not Mind-Affecting, and vice-versa.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting does not help you in any way from a Dragon's Frightful Presence.
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Offline Esgath

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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #6: September 03, 2012, 03:36:55 AM »
From the SRD: All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.

From the: DMG, page 294; actual SRD.

Lesson one, the various Wiki's are not to be trusted w/o checking what you read. Period.

Where they got that line about "Fear Attacks" was in the Monster Manual. Which was not in the DMG or the SRD. The Rules Compendium makes a distinction that not all Fear effects are Fear Attacks, and also has the line about Fear Attacks being Mind-Affecting.

It is, at the very least, a rules "gray area". Which is not the focus of this thread.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 03:39:34 AM by ariasderros »
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Offline TuggyNE

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #7: September 03, 2012, 06:51:15 AM »
From the SRD: All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.

From the: DMG, page 294; actual SRD.

Actually, that precise wording is found quite clearly in the exact section you linked to. The RC update is good to know, though.
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Offline OutlawPhilosopher

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #8: September 03, 2012, 05:32:22 PM »
+1
Trait Removal may work on some things (if they are legal targets and have ex- or su- sources of the immunity). Manipulate Form (yes, that one) could remove the immunity from anything that happened to be a scaled one native to Toril.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #9: September 03, 2012, 06:06:06 PM »
Trait Removal may work on some things (if they are legal targets and have ex- or su- sources of the immunity). Manipulate Form (yes, that one) could remove the immunity from anything that happened to be a scaled one native to Toril.

Undead Traits.
Construct Traits.
etc.
Are all traits that could have that be used wholesale actually.
Nice thought.

So far there are a lot of ways to remove the immunity, and one or two ways of bypassing immunity.
Actually, that precise wording is found quite clearly in the exact section you linked to. The RC update is good to know, though.
:facepalm
I concede. Makes me wonder why it's missing from the DMG and its errata.
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Offline skydragonknight

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #10: September 04, 2012, 04:36:16 AM »
Honorable mention for Nightmare Spinner's "Adaptation" section.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #11: September 04, 2012, 08:01:43 PM »
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #12: April 17, 2017, 03:50:49 PM »
What a perfect thread to necro. Fear abilities can be from special qualities or special attacks. As Soro rightly nitpicked my antimage class, they are distinct in the rules, even if players rarely have to bother with it.

The fear handbook is wrong when it says "All fear effects are mind-affecting fear effects (Rules Compendium, Pg 53)." What the RC really says is "Fear attacks can have various consequences, but all of them are mind-affecting fear effects." Only fear attacks are Mind-affecting, by the rules. Fear special qualities are not.

Frightful presence and fear auras (the two most common fear abilities) are fear attacks, and therefore mind affecting. But there could be other fear abilities that are listed as special qualities rather than attacks, and therefore be non-mind-affecting by default. Of course, they could be specifically called out as mind-affecting in their description, but all we have to do is find an example that doesn't.

Specifically, gaze attacks are out because they are attacks. Auras are specifically included. Moans/howls/shrieks are generally [M-A] anyways. It's a bit of a needle in a haystack: the first 3 monster manuals don't have any. MMIV & MMV's lack of splitting special attacks and special qualities makes digging harder an impossible mess. It is likely that WotC never thought that there could exist a non-attack fear ability/quality.

The only place this seems relevant is whether or not your DM hates your skill monkey and wants to make skills even less relevant: Intimidate. By RAW it would seem that the threat of attack is not an attack, so it is the easiest fear-based check that doesn't allow the usual "I'm immune to mind-affecting, I don't need fear immunity too" problem. It still has the usual diplomacy problems of 1) not working on the mindless, 2) requiring language in addition to 3) it can't work on the fear-immune, 4) only sets to friendly rather than helpful, 6) only works for a limited period of time after you leave, and 7) after that, sets neutrals to unfriendly or unfriendlies to hostile . But hey it doesn't eat up your swift and move action (yay?) in return for making the check's differences about the same.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #13: April 18, 2017, 04:10:02 PM »
 :ninja necro

Huh.  An ultra-specialized dumpster dive is necessary!
That's (some of) what c.o. is all about.

Clearly Polymorph + similars could bump up into this distinction, at some point.
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Offline TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #14: April 18, 2017, 05:53:15 PM »
Path of War: Expanded has two 5th level Stances that let a character bypass immunity to mind-effects (with an added +5 resistance bonus to the target), on top of a 20% miss chance (Sleeping Goddess) or +2 to Combat Maneuvers against feared targets (Eternal Guardian).

Pathfinder content and 3rd party content though, but many play 3.P and Dreamscarred is often treated as 2nd party content at this point =P
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Offline Tshern

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #15: April 20, 2017, 06:16:47 AM »
2) requiring language in addition
Intimidate includes body language though, so for the purposes of demoralising enemies it probably doesn't have a language requirement.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #16: April 20, 2017, 08:03:17 PM »
Demoralizing is a trap due to mindblank, etc. I was talking about the making people friendly part.

Offline Tshern

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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #17: April 21, 2017, 04:49:42 AM »
Demoralizing is a trap due to mindblank, etc. I was talking about the making people friendly part.
Yeah, putting a language requirement there certainly isn't unreasonable.
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Re: Bypassing immunity to Mind-Affecting
« Reply #18: April 22, 2017, 02:44:26 PM »
nothing to add, but wanting to keep an eye on this, what with me being a psionics fanatic.
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