Poll

Do you find the mechanic believable enough to keep?

I find the mechanic believable, so keep it.
15 (68.2%)
I don't find the mechanic believable, so scrap it/change it.
2 (9.1%)
I don't care either way.
3 (13.6%)
I don't think it's believable, but it's a nice option, so keep it.
1 (4.5%)
I think it's believable, but I don't like the mechanic, so scrap it/change it.
1 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability  (Read 3206 times)

Offline ImperatorK

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5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Topic Start: November 21, 2013, 08:49:12 PM »
Well, vote.
This poll was inspired by the same poll on EnWorld. I made this one, because I wanted a wider sampling.
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline SolEiji

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #1: November 21, 2013, 08:56:11 PM »
Believable, plenty.  Ping damage, nick damage, however you call it.  The real trick is balancing so that ping damage doesn't become as effective as having real damage.  May also work better with systems of DR and soak as a primary defense.
Mudada.

Offline Gazzien

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #2: November 21, 2013, 11:12:31 PM »
Ditto; nick/ graze damage on attacks as well as spells is something I would appreciate.

About to start my first ever 4e campaign soon, so we'll see how I like it in practice.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #3: November 22, 2013, 06:35:19 AM »
I personally don't follow 5ed playtest, but from what I read it's something like Str damage on a miss, or maybe Str damage + weapon damage. Don't know what else is there that's added on a hit, though.
The simplest explanation of this abiliy is that when you hit you actually hit where you were aiming, for example the head or middle of the torso, but when you miss, you simply don't hit the head or torso, but instead just graze the neck or shoulder. It's so simple that it hurts, yet over half of votes on EnWorld are that it's not believable and some posters are vehemently arguing against the ability. :banghead
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 06:39:01 AM by ImperatorK »
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline Gazzien

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #4: November 22, 2013, 11:07:30 AM »
Well, if you think of it as "I hit, so I deal X damage" and "I didn't hit, so I must have missed him completely - wait, where's that damage from??" it does sound a bit ridiculous... but if you think of the grazing thing, it makes sense. To me, at least.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #5: November 22, 2013, 05:15:19 PM »
It's a little crazy that this still plagues D&D.  Given that armor figures into armor class, you'd imagine there wouldn't be an automatic association between "miss" and "completely wide swing that doesn't touch the target."  You could solidly hit someone in the chest, in D&D, and still "miss" -- their armor absorbed the blow. 

In the case of abilities like the one mentioned in this thread, you simply hit hard enough to inflict some harm regardless.  Viz. nearly any combat scene written by GRRM. 

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #6: November 22, 2013, 07:17:33 PM »
From what I read, in 5ed the first half of a characters hit points aren't even actual wounds but effort/luck/whatever, and apparently that's not just fluff, but RAW. Considering that tidbit is true (again, I don't follow 5ed playtests), I can't seem to understand peoples argument that it's unbelievable for somone to miss but still deal some damage. I can understand if they don't like the mechanic, but arguments like this are just silly, and a double standard at that. I can as well go and say that magic is unbelievable and should be removed from 5ed, and it would make much more sense. Not to mention that people who are arguing for removing the ability from 5ed are minimally impacted by it because they don't have to use it/allow it themselves (it's just one option for just a few warrior type classes), but they still want to take that option away from people that do like it and want it in, which simply sounds like spite to me. "I don't like it, so no one else can't have it!"
BTW, it would be nice if any of you guys that have an account over there could go and make a vote in the poll.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 07:34:09 PM by ImperatorK »
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #7: November 23, 2013, 12:00:18 AM »
I just noticed something. This and the original poll is kinda biased (no wonder, it was created by an "anti-damage-on-a-miss" person). Thus I'm adding some more options. Changing your votes is fortunately available.
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #8: November 23, 2013, 03:34:38 PM »
Dungeon & Dragon's Online has a trait called Grazing Hit. The mechanics are of course somewhat complex since a computer calculates them on the fly but it boils down to if you roll high and still miss you deal a reduced amount of damage (1[W] with no mods). They also have Glancing Blows which allows your wide sweeping animations to attack multiple foes simultaneously while wielding Two-Handed Weapons. And since a GB roll is done separately it's possible to miss your main target and still hit them with a GB, which deals 10% of your normal damage minus additional dice (through SA still applies, may not be wai).

And yes, I like DDO's Attack/Damage changes.
And yes, I find them believable and if you own Bandaids rather than a pocket surgeon you do to.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #9: November 23, 2013, 03:42:57 PM »
I found a blog post that makes some good points about this issue.
http://daegames.blogspot.com/2013/11/d-next-miss-conceptions.html
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #10: November 24, 2013, 04:14:24 PM »
What is wrong with some people ... (ignore the mirror please).
 :)


3e has Reflex saves = half damage
4e has Lots Of saves = ~half damage

It's not like anyone who has ever played D&D regardless of the edition !!  :fu
... has or has not dealt with something less than Full Damage + Auto Hit
at one end of the deal, or something more than No Damage + Auto-Miss.

Stupid, really stupid.
And they're proving they can't fluff things ; which is even worse.
So now the game designers have to:
a) ... read minds
b) ... do the refluff for them
c) ... read minds of dudes who don't think the "exact" same
d) ... repeat
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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #11: November 25, 2013, 09:04:05 PM »
I don't care either way in terms of so-called "realism"

What's more important are the ramifications. I haven't read any of the rules, but this is what I begin to consider.

1. There is a psychological impact of "never missing". I have players who will not roll attack-roll based characters because they despise the roulette, so they play casters or DFA, etc. This changes perception for some people.
2. Is the strength modifier damage a significant percentage of a damage roll? Does enemy DR make it eventually meaningless? Is the choice to two-hand or use versatile weapons nothing but noob trap for whatever mechanics reasons?
3. Does the miss damage trigger poison, precision damage, spell-storing weapons or other feats or features?

If the damage and consequences of miss damage is so inconsequential, I'd rather not have it just for the sake of saving calculation time in a turn.


Offline ImperatorK

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #12: November 26, 2013, 06:26:06 AM »
1. There's already precedence in form of spells. Many deal half damage even when you save. Also, it's only one ability for just a few (3, IIRC) classes. A player might as well never see the ability in his game, just like some players never see grappling or sunder being used.
2. I don't know, but people say it's not that big of a deal and some even say that the ability isn't even that great, so I assume it's a smaller part of the damage on a hit.
Don't know if there's DR in 5ed, but probably it will make this ability less useful.
Not really, it's a choice for people that want to use two-handed or versatile weapons.
3. I assume yes.
What do you mean by "inconsequential"?
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Offline zugschef

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #13: November 26, 2013, 08:33:46 AM »
Redundant rule. That's why you've got damage rolls.

Offline dither

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #14: November 26, 2013, 12:23:03 PM »
If properly handled, there's a lot of design space to work with there.

I'm generally for it.


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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #15: November 26, 2013, 01:24:04 PM »
Inconsequential, as in, say less than 10% of your normal damage roll. If the base weapon dice + enhancement bonus + whatever is far heavier weighted than the +str mod damage, then I don't see much reason to have the rule - purely for the sake of the damage.

To revisit noob trap, the analog I'm thinking of is Toughness. In 3.5 lvl1, HP: d8 + conmod + 3hpToughness, the feat is significant. Similarly weapon damage 1d8 + 3strmod and getting 3 damage on a miss is a significant percentage. However, once you move up in levels, and your weapon damage is augmented by GMW, Strikes, Smite, Wallop, Power Attack, etc., the miss damage means very little, unless it does trigger auxiliary effects.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #16: November 27, 2013, 02:24:16 PM »
(I may have been a little harsh, but still)


MMA real life example:
Jon Jones will throw a punch fully intending to hit, if possible.
But if he misses, it sets up an Elbow strike to a slightly different area.
He does this a lot.

I'd score it something like: 
Miss = -2 penalty to target's AC til end of round and -1 penalty to strikers crit chance.
(although this is more like a condition tag)
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Offline dither

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #17: November 27, 2013, 02:46:15 PM »
I kind of like it because it reminds me of "chipping" in fighting games.

Sure, you can block, but some damage still gets through -- you can't block forever, not even the strongest defender.

Then DR could represent "perfect block" from like, Guilty Gear.


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Offline Risada

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #18: December 03, 2013, 03:59:22 PM »
I don't really mind it. It kind of makes sense to me.

Then DR could represent "perfect block" from like, Guilty Gear.

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Offline Eldritch_Lord

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Re: 5ed "Damage on a miss" ability
« Reply #19: December 03, 2013, 05:20:26 PM »
It's a little crazy that this still plagues D&D.  Given that armor figures into armor class, you'd imagine there wouldn't be an automatic association between "miss" and "completely wide swing that doesn't touch the target."  You could solidly hit someone in the chest, in D&D, and still "miss" -- their armor absorbed the blow.

Except, of course, that not all characters wear armor.  By this point everyone basically accepts that a "miss" means "missed you but might have hit your armor, cover, etc.," but there's a difference between "The blow doesn't penetrate your plate armor, but it still gives you a big bruise" on the one hand and "You dodge his blow but feel so tired afterward that it impairs your combat skill except not tired enough to actually impair anything mechanically" on the other.

It's like those groups that don't like the idea of fighters sustaining multiple wounds, so they narrate all hits except the killing blow as being near misses that tire you out and wear you down with fatigue...until they have to deal with an on-hit effect like poison, and either the poison magically jumps from the blade to poison you on a hit that "missed" you, or enemies suddenly get a lot more accurate when you apply poison to a blade and hit with a ton of grazing blows.

I think if 5e had an analog to touch AC few people would have a problem with it, since "if you miss, but still beat their touch AC, you deal some damage" implies making at least some physical contact whether your target is well-armored or just really evasive.  Personally I'm fine with it, and I remember fondly the days when fighters were army-slayers who could attack one 0th-level enemy per level per round, but as it stands many people just won't accept the fact that a fighter can wade through a ton of kobolds or manes or whatever at 1st level and kill everyone without making a single attack roll because his damage on a miss will still kill them, if only because it's unfair to their paladins and other martial-hybrid types who can't do the same.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 02:23:02 PM by Eldritch_Lord »