Author Topic: Pathfinder tier system  (Read 37993 times)

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #140: July 26, 2013, 04:41:11 PM »
Well, you can use rods if you play a Tiefling (prehensile tail variant), and quite frankly... you want to be playing a Tiefling anyway, it has perfect stats (if dex-based; no race gives str/int, so str-based has to suck it up just as much as with any other race choice) and great racial features.  So that's not much of an issue.

Losing out from haste is annoying, that ruling was pretty recent and IMO very poorly argued from a rules and logic standpoint.  I would think many DMs would houserule that away, but even if they don't, as long as you're using melee touch spells, you're not falling behind on attacks, at least.  Speed enhancement is overpriced and not really relevant to...anything.

2H is definitely better, though Dervish Dance for MAD-reduction and/or Crane Wing to reward 1H style makes it less of a gap.  I don't even think a Magus should be focusing on physical damage, he'd be better off finding ways to have his attacks impose debuffs (for example, blade of mercy trait + Enforcer feat), the optimized Shocking Grasp is where the damage will mainly come from.

Casting in threatened area: Again, concentration isn't that hard, and in PF you're also allowed to cast touch spell, move to melee, then deliver the touch spell.  Which can help sometimes.  Also, Hexcrafter can use Prehensile Hair to do spells or even make his attacks from reach when it's an issue.  And most Magi will pick up Lunge at level 9 or so.

You need the level 2 class feature to attack through your weapon w/ a spell, so you can't actually do that at level 1...

I don't think any of that makes Spell Combat bad... the recent haste ruling is definitely a kick in the pants, though.

Offline Power

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #141: July 26, 2013, 06:45:33 PM »
Well, you can use rods if you play a Tiefling (prehensile tail variant), and quite frankly... you want to be playing a Tiefling anyway, it has perfect stats (if dex-based; no race gives str/int, so str-based has to suck it up just as much as with any other race choice) and great racial features.  So that's not much of an issue.
Eh, you could be a Str+Int Human with the Dual Talent alternate racial trait. It's better than burning feats on Dervish Dance. The AC bonus off dex is nice but at the end of the day your character can run around in medium and heavy armor.

Losing out from haste is annoying, that ruling was pretty recent and IMO very poorly argued from a rules and logic standpoint.  I would think many DMs would houserule that away, but even if they don't, as long as you're using melee touch spells, you're not falling behind on attacks, at least.  Speed enhancement is overpriced and not really relevant to...anything.
If you're using Melee touch spells, yes, but you still get penalties on your other attacks. If the GM lets you get the bonus attack from Haste while Spell Combat, then Spell Combat would have better value.

2H is definitely better, though Dervish Dance for MAD-reduction and/or Crane Wing to reward 1H style makes it less of a gap.  I don't even think a Magus should be focusing on physical damage, he'd be better off finding ways to have his attacks impose debuffs (for example, blade of mercy trait + Enforcer feat), the optimized Shocking Grasp is where the damage will mainly come from.
It's not MAD reduction imo. You're mostly switching str for dex at the cost of two feats. Even if you're fighting one-handed, you don't need to be a dex build. Also, Crane Wing always seems too feat intensive to be worthwhile.

Casting in threatened area: Again, concentration isn't that hard, and in PF you're also allowed to cast touch spell, move to melee, then deliver the touch spell. Which can help sometimes.
No it isn't, but you're also getting penalties on your other rolls while doing this. Like I said, those chances to fail add up. And if you're doing that with spell combat, you started in the threatened zone, so you don't get two five foot steps to cash in on that melee touch without a concentration check. If you're using a regular move after your melee touch spell with your spell combat build, then you might as well use spell combat from a distance and cast Bladed Dash as a gap closer before you do your attacks.

Also, Hexcrafter can use Prehensile Hair to do spells or even make his attacks from reach when it's an issue.  And most Magi will pick up Lunge at level 9 or so.
You're not getting much damage from attacking with Prehensile Hair unless you're actually going to burn your arcane pool on it. Lunge would help, so long as you're not facing opponents with equivalent or greater reach, aye.

You need the level 2 class feature to attack through your weapon w/ a spell, so you can't actually do that at level 1...
Point. Fixed.

I don't think any of that makes Spell Combat bad... the recent haste ruling is definitely a kick in the pants, though.
It definitely is.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 08:09:44 PM by Power »

Offline Squirel_Dude

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #142: August 08, 2013, 05:23:17 PM »
Coming to a Pathfinder tier list near you. Martial Adepts

Playtest for the Warlord class is out.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 11:46:25 AM by Squirel_Dude »

Online Nanshork

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #143: August 08, 2013, 06:39:15 PM »
Coming to a Pathfinder tier list near you. Martial Adepts

Holy Shit it's being done by ErrantX!  I have high hopes for it.
Nanshork's "Notes to Self" (Extended Signature Thread)

Offline Power

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #144: September 02, 2013, 04:33:10 PM »
Seems the Bestow Grace of the Champion spell reduces the Paladin's niche, as any high level lawful good Oracle can just self-cast it.

Offline Squirel_Dude

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #145: September 04, 2013, 09:09:51 AM »
It does. It's a really dumb spell.

Offline Gazzien

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #146: September 04, 2013, 09:53:33 AM »
It does. It's a really dumb spell.
On a (3.5) tangent (for Rogues, not paladins), there's also Nightstalker's Transformation in the Spell Compendium.

Offline Squirel_Dude

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #147: September 11, 2013, 10:23:11 PM »
Also incoming: The Advanced Class Guide from Paizo.

Offline Power

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #148: October 06, 2013, 03:32:01 PM »
Sacred Servant Paladin is Tier 3. It gets a domain (including spells) and free planar ally.

Offline Nahash

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #149: October 06, 2013, 08:56:07 PM »
Considering how the entirety of Pathfinder is a giant love letter to spell casters and all, being left out of the party completely...kind of sucks, a lot. Remember, one of the biggest strength of spells is how meticulously spelled out everything is (most of the time).  The DM literally has to houserule his game, and massively so, to screw you out of things.  Instead of it all coming down to his "interpretation" due to a dearth of explicit text.

With this in mind, I'm wondering how that mentality effects Psionics, given how all of the PF Psionics stuff is put out solely by Dreamscarred.

Considering the incredible power of things like Summoners, what exactly qualifies Psions for Tier 2 in Pathfinder? It can't be merely the inertia from 3.5, can it? I'm not really arguing that they're not, since they are quite versatile, I'm just curious as to where exactly they place by comparison to the other Tier 2s.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #150: October 06, 2013, 10:20:05 PM »
Since this thread got bumped again, it's worth noting that the FAQ saying Magus can't benefit from Haste with Spell Combat has been reversed now.

Offline Squirel_Dude

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #151: October 06, 2013, 11:07:09 PM »
Oh, and the topic of FAQ rulings and class+race combinations: Half-Elves/Orcs now qualify for all human and elf/orc feats, traits, archetypes, etc.'

AKA you can now play a half-orc scarred witch doctor

Offline Power

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #152: October 07, 2013, 12:42:08 AM »
Not only that but Half-Elves and Half-Orcs may now take Human Favored Class Bonuses. By extension, so could an Aasimar with Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 08:42:25 AM by Power »

Offline Power

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #153: October 14, 2013, 01:23:36 PM »
Razmiran Priest Sorcerer should be a separate Tier 1 too.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 01:39:13 PM by Power »

Offline Squirel_Dude

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #154: October 14, 2013, 11:23:09 PM »
It might be tier 1, but I'm not sure. He's making a lot of skill checks to use divine spells, through items, which will cost a lot of money, eating into one of the advantages of casters (less money needed for gear).

Offline Power

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #155: October 15, 2013, 02:26:35 PM »
It might be tier 1, but I'm not sure. He's making a lot of skill checks to use divine spells, through items, which will cost a lot of money, eating into one of the advantages of casters (less money needed for gear).
By that logic the Wizard isn't a Tier 1 either.

As for skill checks, that is really not a problem. Sorcerers are charisma based (UMD is a Cha skill), have UMD as a class skill, they get to add half their class levels to their UMD, and a feat (Divine Deception, Skill Focus, Magical Aptitude?) or two can easily finish it off.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 02:28:36 PM by Power »

Offline Squirel_Dude

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #156: October 15, 2013, 08:05:00 PM »
It might be tier 1, but I'm not sure. He's making a lot of skill checks to use divine spells, through items, which will cost a lot of money, eating into one of the advantages of casters (less money needed for gear).
By that logic the Wizard isn't a Tier 1 either.

As for skill checks, that is really not a problem. Sorcerers are charisma based (UMD is a Cha skill), have UMD as a class skill, they get to add half their class levels to their UMD, and a feat (Divine Deception, Skill Focus, Magical Aptitude?) or two can easily finish it off.
fair enough. I'm just not sure that it pushes them past tier two into tier 1. Having your expanded power based on the magical items you can acquire (it's not like they can make the scrolls/wands) means that your power is similar to a fighter in some regard. I would also add that gaining access to the arcane spell list as a divine caster is more of a boost than gaining access to the divine spells list as an arcane caster.

I also have a sneaking suspicion that it's just going to force the sorcerer to cast cure spells all the time :P
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 09:04:09 PM by Squirel_Dude »

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #157: May 11, 2014, 02:20:19 AM »
Slightly Necro, but very relevant.  Ssalarn is heading the project to bring Incarnum to PF, and the classes look to be landing in the T3-4 range. I've gathered the relevant info together here with links.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12797.0