Author Topic: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer  (Read 2864 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #20: January 10, 2017, 04:48:58 PM »
Gunsmith is quite literally the "blaster" those types think they want to play.


Quote
0 as per usual , labeling something an Artificer when there's already an Artificer ...

4 Infuse , use cantrips but obtained how?

The feature says artificer spells and there are no artificer cantrips.  Even though their slots interact well with Magic Initiate, MI doesn't make the cantrips part of the class list.  I don't think any racial cantrips have language that indicate they become part of a caster class list.

I'm being cheeky  :flutter ... or is that sneaky  :smirk


8wGremlin ... iirc Borg285 (who posted here-bout as Borg286)
was running that thread, and maybe maybe it got saved at ENWorld.
Maybe.  I'd assume he'd be the guy to maintain it, or at least be interested.
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Offline 8wGremlin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #21: January 10, 2017, 05:08:24 PM »
thanks awaken_D_M_golem will see what I can find!

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #22: January 10, 2017, 05:18:58 PM »
Quote
Dex check instead of vs AC damage seems to be asking for a Hex/Lock dip for the alchemist. For the class overall really. Go deep enough and your chain imp and giant eagle construct could have entire adventures without you.

I think MI would be the optimal way to do this, since the artificer scales with its own levels.  However, unless I'm missing something, the alchemist uses saving throws.  Hex doesn't affect saving throws.  It adds damage to things with attack rolls and it puts disadvantage on ability checks.  Shorthand, ability checks are anything that's not an attack roll or saving throw.
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Offline sambojin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #23: January 10, 2017, 05:40:13 PM »
True. My bad.

What are your thoughts on RAW vs RAI of Thunder Monger (or alchemist bombs) and the Haste spell? RAW it doesn't work, but do you think it was intended to? Would put the entire class up a tier or two if it did. But no multi-booms or pseudo-SA-shooting makes it a weird rogue, regardless of archetype.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 05:52:14 PM by sambojin »

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #24: January 10, 2017, 05:53:42 PM »
I think they intentionally made those their own actions.  Otherwise, they would get out of control with multiclassing for extra attack, Haste, Action Surge, and various forms of off-turn attacks.

It's worth remembering to put in the feedback survey to get it clarified if the above was not the intent.
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Offline sambojin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #25: January 10, 2017, 06:07:48 PM »
Overall then, a rogue AT is probably a more reliable shooter than a Gunsmith (multi-attacks giving you a higher chance of landing your SA) with about the same level of magicality. Kind of.

No pet for the AT, but I don't really rate a CR2 pet that highly. Fun, more than a ribbon, but not that amazing. Same with the magic items really. Flight at lvl6 is good, so are the magic items, but not exactly standouts.

Oh well. I'll have to put some more thought into it, because I'm probably missing something that makes them great in comparison to other classes. Big easy swing but maybe no ding damage-wise, with some other stuff is the way I'm looking at Gunsmiths right now.

It's probably my "Moon-Druidness" looking at it as not all that good for all the super-ribbons Artificers get. They're probably fine. Considering wildshape essentially becomes a super-ribbon later on as well.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 06:16:50 PM by sambojin »

Offline Wilb

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #26: January 10, 2017, 08:44:47 PM »
Is it possible for a high level Forest Gnome Gunsmith to hop on his gyrocopter (giant eagle) and have the bot activate invisibility from an infused object then use minor illusion to form a mist image leaving only his head and gun outside it then shooting (with sharpshooter) from max range with impunity (or almost)? Maybe a silence spell from a friendly wizard...
Lovely Zoma...

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #27: January 10, 2017, 10:39:13 PM »
No pet for the AT, but I don't really rate a CR2 pet that highly. Fun, more than a ribbon, but not that amazing. Same with the magic items really. Flight at lvl6 is good, so are the magic items, but not exactly standouts.

The AT is spending a feat or dedicating concentration to Haste to get 2 shots a turn though. And...

Is it possible for a high level Forest Gnome Gunsmith to hop on his gyrocopter (giant eagle) and have the bot activate invisibility from an infused object then use minor illusion to form a mist image leaving only his head and gun outside it then shooting (with sharpshooter) from max range with impunity (or almost)? Maybe a silence spell from a friendly wizard...

I think the real power of the construct feature is the 3 flying choices that have enough intelligence to activate infusions.  I'm guessing Forest Gnome is to get Minor Illusion as a racial cantrip, right?  High Elf can pull off that trick too.  The constructs are big enough for any race to use as a mount.  Minor Illusion doesn't move, so that's a stationary trick, but it's good for an ambush, and the invisibility portion is good mount protection.

e: There must be a use for a construct activating Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.  It looks like it's legal for a > 6 Int construct to activate that on an unwilling creature for control that doesn't use the artificer's concentration, or activate it on the construct when it's used as a mount to make it nigh-invincible for the cost of cutting its speed in half.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 10:54:10 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline 8wGremlin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #28: January 11, 2017, 01:31:05 AM »
+1
A warlock, forge cleric and an Artificer walk into a bar... Well a lab actually

Artificer gunsmith gives the Forge cleric their Thunder Cannon.

Forge cleric uses Blessing of the Forge on the Thunder Cannon and doesn't have a long rest for 25 hours.

The pact of the Blade warlock attunes to the New Magic Thunder Cannon over 24 hours and now binds this as their pact weapon, they now have proficiency with the Thunder Cannon and pays for the Artificer to build a new Thunder Cannon.

How this helps or what the benefits are I'm not sure...

Offline Wilb

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #29: January 11, 2017, 10:30:01 AM »
Giant Eagles and Giant Owls can speak their own laguages, is there a way to abuse this with some activated magic items?
Lovely Zoma...

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #30: January 11, 2017, 04:59:24 PM »
 :??? ... feels like the total number of decisions are significantly less than FiEK or RogAT.  More complicated than Elements Monk.

Spell list is smaller, spell list interactions way less, far fewer useful feats related to class features, most of those class based crafting choices could be dice rolls, etc
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Offline 7h39

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #31: January 12, 2017, 02:58:52 PM »
+1
I'm thinking some way to optimize the gunsmith.... obv the limiting factor is the bonus action reload time, but i'm guessing if the class gives already a cheesy solution to this.

i'm talking about the Mechanical Servant... a mini-leadership from 3.5 thanks to: "The servant uses that beastís game statistics, but it can look however you like, as long as its form is appropriate for its statistics."

Yhea... i would really appeciate a low-int (not so low), opposable thumb, ultron-proof, flying squire that could recharge the rifle for me. Wellcome, Iron Legion!

Giant Owl/Eagle (eage is better) stats with int 8 + open worded "look however you like" humanoid form with at least a pair of hands can manage the reload, i guess.

The trick:
1. Give IronLegion the rifle and the satchel, damn you lost it!
2. Rebuild rifle and satchel for you.
3. Charge both rifle.
4. Give IronLegion one of those
5. Draw your rifle.

Hypotetical turn sequence with a Gunsmith7/Fighter5 (just an example to have 2 attacks)

1. [PC] (Action: Attack#1) Fire with Rifle1
2. [PC] (Free Action?) Drop Rifle1
3. [PC] (Action: Attack#2) Grab and fire with Rifle2 - draw weapons seems to be a free action while attaking by PHB193/ and is within restriction of PHB190 "other activity.."-
4. [IL] (Action?) Grab Rifle 1
5. [PC] (Bonus action) Reload Rifle2
6. [IL] (Bonus action) Reload Rifle 1

Repeat.


What do you think?

EDIT: After futher readings i found my previous submission clunky and not functioning by RAW.

Here's why:
Your turn can include a variety of flourishes that requrie neither your action nor your move. You can communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn.
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as your stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action.  -snip-

Basically our PG actively manipulates (drop + draw) 2 different items or 2 times the same, so he shouldn't also shot by raw. Moreover having double rifle and satchel makes cheese smell even worse.

- The Revision - powered by:
 
Here are a few examples of the sorts of things you can do in tandem with your movement and action:

draw or sheathe a sword
-snip-
hand an item to another character

The trick:
1. Give IronLegion 20 charges from the satchel
2. Charge the rifle.
3. Draw your rifle.
4. IronLegion readies.

Hypotetical turn sequence with a Gunsmith7/Fighter5 (just an example to have 2 attacks)

0. [IL] (Action: Ready) Trigger: recieve weapon from PC / Action: Reload and give rifle to PC
1. [PC] (Action Surge) Fire with Rifle
1.1. [PC] (Bonus action) Reload Rifle
2. [PC] (Action: Attack#1) Fire with Rifle + hand it to IronLegion
3. [IL] (Reaction) Reload rifle and hand rifle to PC
4. [PC] (Action: Attack#2) Fire with Rifle

Repeat without Action Surge

Any better?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 01:30:33 AM by 7h39 »

Offline sambojin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #32: January 12, 2017, 04:40:53 PM »
Do you need to be proficient with a weapon to load it? It's not a roll-related thing, so no proficiency bonus doesn't matter, so you should be able to.

Good catch on the "has hands" part too. Opens up a lot of options compared to most normal pets. Even some ranged attacks for dexxy creatures (there is no proficiency or training needed for some of them, ala alchemist's fire or acid flasks. It's an action, not an "attack action". Damage-type versatility is good for any pet). Yet another caltrop/ball bearing delivery system is nice too. Something as simple as a giant spider becomes way more useful with hands. At worst, everything's a crappy bowman (assuming your DM plays it that everything can use its action to "attack", unless stated otherwise). Even two weapon fighting is possible in theory (although virtually everything is 2d6+Str or better to begin with anyway, often with higher to-hit than basic stats give you). You're not losing a proficiency bonus if you didn't have any in the first place. It's hands you need, not training. Throwing, shooting and melee is all "allowable" with the necessary appendages. It's just potentially worse than the beast's normal attack actions. Pack Tactics' advantage may smooth out to-hit rolls with two weapons though. And you've got slashing/bludgeoning/piercing damage at all times with enough hands too. Everything gets a crappy reach attack as well.

It shouldn't be exactly hard to armour them up a bit if you base them on a warhorse for armour "proficiency" either. Not the best HP-wise, and "appropriate for its statistics" is kind of a grey area, but there's tonnes of options with hands and "look how you want".


So many options. Body double pets, exact copies of kings, 34 tentacle-hand hentai thingies, the list list goes on. Large size stymies a few of these, but they're just examples. It could be a walking (or flying) mini-fort, a stealth-boulder, a large flying piece of rope (with many hands, talons and a beak), or anything you can imagine really.

"Appropriate for its statistics" is such a silly term in D&D.

Good work!



((don't know if the above action sequence would fly with some DMs. Attacks tend to be made all in one go, so having a "free action" in between them that interacts with something else might not be allowed. Which is kind of silly considering the lack of movement restrictions, etc, with multiple attacks, but there you go. It may be allowed for the very same reasons. Depends on if your DM thinks grabbing a weapon from someone else is "free" on step #3. Drawing a weapon is different to grabbing one from someone else, especially if you've already attacked with and dropped one already. "Free" actions are meant to smooth over stuff, not give unlimited time-independant interactions. When you take your bonus action at step #5 is also a problem, because they tend to happen on "your turn", not whenever you feel like it. Could just switch steps #4 and #5 to alleviate that though. This is hypothetically. I wouldn't let you "lose" your thunder gun like that anyway.))
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 09:09:05 PM by sambojin »

Offline 7h39

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #33: January 13, 2017, 01:35:21 AM »
Quote
((don't know if the above action sequence would fly with some DMs. Attacks tend to be made all in one go, so having a "free action" in between them that interacts with something else might not be allowed. Which is kind of silly considering the lack of movement restrictions, etc, with multiple attacks, but there you go. It may be allowed for the very same reasons. Depends on if your DM thinks grabbing a weapon from someone else is "free" on step #3. Drawing a weapon is different to grabbing one from someone else, especially if you've already attacked with and dropped one already. "Free" actions are meant to smooth over stuff, not give unlimited time-independant interactions. When you take your bonus action at step #5 is also a problem, because they tend to happen on "your turn", not whenever you feel like it. Could just switch steps #4 and #5 to alleviate that though. This is hypothetically. I wouldn't let you "lose" your thunder gun like that anyway.))

I was thinking the same thing and modified my turn schedule to take advantage of the reaction action-breaking features.

Thx for the advice!

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #34: January 13, 2017, 03:42:26 PM »
I like it.
Mecha-squid doesn't have proficiency, but that's not so much of a problem.

"Once fired, it must be reloaded as a bonus action."
I think this is a property of the weapon itself, not strictly something only the class ability can do.
Does the DMG have a Firearms section (that I obviously did not look for at all) ??


Fighter 5 could be any of the 2nd Attack classes.
Bladelock has basically a non-overlapping spell list, interesting synergy.


Pic of the godslayer gun from Drive Angry ...

« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 03:47:34 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #35: January 17, 2017, 03:49:34 PM »
+1
It's especially important to give feedback on the artificer.  http://sgiz.mobi/s3/9c17dda91a1d

My feedback:
-Make it a 4th level caster with cantrips or make it a 5th level caster.
-Make the current Large construct its own archetype with scaling like Beast Conclave.
-Give the base class Find Familiar as a ritual.  The familiar is a construct with the construct benefits from Mechanical Servant.
-Expand the Wondrous Invention list.
-Increase the radius on Tindertwig and Tanglefoot bag.  Increase effects of Thunderstone or add damage to it.
-Change the Gunsmith to a wand/staff blaster like 3.5 Eberron.  Leave the mechanics the same.
-Make Piercing Round and Explosive Round higher damage to be more worthwhile high level features.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 03:54:42 PM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #36: January 23, 2017, 05:34:29 PM »
Halfling (idk which) , regular Human might work too (quite MAD build)
Cloistered Scholar background fits the fluff mainly
Mark of Hospitality feat from the UA:Eberron
Gunsmith 2 / Tome'lock 4 just in time for the Rope Trick trick at it's absolute earliest
Gunsmith 4+ / Tome'lock 5 write Leomund's Hut into tome 1 level behind Wiz 5 / Lock 3
might get lucky next level via Robe of Useful items for another 3 ritual immediately
then make them by the pile with each Rare consumable sold.

assumes no Lore Bard is available, normal DMG treasure distribution and normal crafting, but guarantees the Robe
simplified build and play, compared to wizard, maybe Gun 5 / Tome 11 / X as a possibility
which ever way, it might feel overshadowed by a Full Caster 17,
but the shtick is still functional :  blast, rituals, utility
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #37: January 27, 2017, 03:47:24 PM »
basically :

any 2 attack class 5 or 6 / Arty X
Arty 5 / Tome'Lock 15
Arty 15 / Tome'Lock 5
Arty 13 / Tome'Lock 7 gains back level 4s
Wiz Arty 2 / this Arty X (probably not kosher but you never know warning)
this Arty 5 / Wiz Arty 15 (same warning as above)
Wiz Arty 8 / this Arty 12 gains back level 4s
... minor handwave on Medium Armor multiclassing on most of these.
Order of class levels up in the air.
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Offline 8wGremlin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #38: January 28, 2017, 03:55:48 PM »
basically :

any 2 attack class 5 or 6 / Arty X
Arty 5 / Tome'Lock 15
Arty 15 / Tome'Lock 5
Arty 13 / Tome'Lock 7 gains back level 4s
Wiz Arty 2 / this Arty X (probably not kosher but you never know warning)
this Arty 5 / Wiz Arty 15 (same warning as above)
Wiz Arty 8 / this Arty 12 gains back level 4s
... minor handwave on Medium Armor multiclassing on most of these.
Order of class levels up in the air.

Why? to what end, I don't see what the benefits are, I think I may have lost something in translation, or it's not spelt out clearly enough for me. Sorry.

Offline sambojin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: Artificer
« Reply #39: January 29, 2017, 03:29:53 PM »
I think awakened_golem is just exploring the envelope of where an artificer feels good and useful without losing too much to multiclassing. About as good as a Lock, but with different options for spellcasting. Something that's handy to be done, because other than a very cool pet and some magic gubbins, they don't seem to "do anything" better than anything else where I could see the advantage of a fair few Arty levels or how you'd level into a build easily while not stunting your character too much. Those suggested builds do that.

For a dumb dippy, new UA tree Ranger + Arty(Alch) 1 magic movement pills makes your guardian form a pretty viable combat form as well as having the whole unlimited healing schtick. Reach, size and movement could be cool with some options and feats. A few Monk levels if you really want and a lot of MADness and there's heaps of stuff that could be done. You are Groot! With firebombs.

The flame trees will stun the weary driver.....
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 04:11:16 PM by sambojin »