Author Topic: Wizard rework  (Read 2270 times)

Offline Prime32

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Wizard rework
« Topic Start: December 23, 2011, 05:46:28 PM »
Intended for use alongside classes similar to warmage/beguiler/etc., with ToB-style multiclassing.

Wizard

HD: d4

Class Skills (2+Int): Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Profession, Search, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.

LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
1st+0+0+0+2Eldritch blast (least), Lore, Spells, Trapfinding
2nd+1+0+0+3Dismantle spell, Extended lifespan
3rd+1+1+1+3Talent
4th+2+1+1+4Eclectic learning
5th+2+1+1+4Craft grimoire
6th+3+2+2+5Eldritch blast (lesser), Talent
7th+3+2+2+5Improved dispel +1
8th+4+2+2+6Eclectic learning
9th+4+3+3+6Talent
10th+5+3+3+7Suppress spell
11th+5+3+3+7Eldritch blast (greater)
12th+6/+1+4+4+8Eclectic learning, Talent
13th+6/+1+4+4+8Improved dispel +2
14th+7/+2+4+4+9Craft grand grimoire
15th+7/+2+5+5+9Talent
16th+8/+3+5+5+10Eclectic learning, Eldritch blast (dark)
17th+8/+3+5+5+10Timeless body
18th+9/+4+6+6+11Reconfigure spell, Talent
19th+9/+4+6+6+11Eureka
20th+10/+5+6+6+12Eclectic learning, Improved dispel +3
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Wizards are proficient with simple weapons, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a wizardís movements, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells: A wizard casts spells spontaneously based on Intelligence. He has knowledge of every spell on his spell list (see below), like a warmage. Every two levels a wizard possesses in other classes stack with his wizard level for determining caster level and spells per day (eg. a wizard 10/fighter 10 would cast as a wizard 15).

Eldritch Blast (Sp): A wizard's eldritch blast deals 1d6 damage per two caster levels (round up) as a ranged touch attack with range Close (25ft +5ft per caster level). The appearance of an eldritch blast varies from wizard to wizard, with some being nearly invisible while others resemble physical projectiles or streams of energy. Unlike most spell-like abilities an eldritch blast has somatic components, making it subject to ASF from wearing armour.
In addition he gains one Least invocation, which must be an eldritch essence or blast shape invocation. At 6th, 11th and 16th levels he learns a Lesser, Greater and Dark invocation respectively, subject to the same restrictions.

Lore (Ex): Thanks to long hours of study, a wizard has a wide range of stray knowledge. This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the wizard's class level in place of the bard level.

Trapfinding: Wizards can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
Wizards can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. A wizard who beats a trapís DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with his party) without disarming it.

Dismantle Spell (Sp): At 2nd level, a wizard may attempt to end a single spell which he has identified as if casting targeted greater dispel magic at his normal caster level, except that the casting time is increased to 1 minute. He may use this ability at will.

Extended Lifespan (Ex): At 2nd level a wizard's maximum lifespan is increased by 2 years per wizard level he possesses (adjust this modifier if his wizard level changes; this can result in death if his maximum lifespan falls below his current lifespan).

Talent: At every 3rd level a wizard may select a talent from the list below. Talents marked with an asterisk may be selected multiple times. He may use spell-based talents with spells from any class, not just wizard.
  • Arcane Fire (Su): When using eldritch blast, the wizard can sacrifice one spell slot to convert it to a supernatural ability and increase its damage by +1d6 per spell level.
  • Arcane Reach*: The wizard can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away as a ranged touch attack. This range increases by an additional +30ft for each time he selects this ability after the first.
  • Bonus Feat*: The wizard gains one metamagic or item creation feat as a bonus feat, as long as he meets the prerequisites.
  • Effortless Casting: The wizard may apply the Silent Spell and Still Spell metamagic feats to wizard spells without increasing the level of the affected spell. This has no benefit if the wizard does not possess the feat in question.
  • Enhanced Alchemy: The wizard can create enhanced versions of alchemical items and substances by expending a spell slot as part of the crafting process. If the item or substance deals damage, multiply the damage dealt by the spell level. If the item or substance doesnít deal damage, multiply the duration of its effect. If the item or substance doesnít deal damage and doesnít have a specific listed duration (or has an instantaneous duration), multiply all dimensions of its area. In addition, the item's save DC (if any) is increased by an amount equal to the spell level.
    In order to expend a slot as part of this ability, the wizard must have a number of ranks in Craft (alchemy) at least 3 greater than the minimum caster level required to cast a spell of that level.
  • Familiar*: The wizard gains a familiar. If he has multiple familiars his Share Spells ability allows him to share each spell with a single familiar only.
  • Mastery of Counterspelling: When the wizard counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled.
  • Mastery of Elements: The wizard can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spellís casting time is unaffected. The caster decides whether to alter the spellís energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting.
  • Mastery of Shaping: The wizard can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spellís area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet.
  • Permanent Spell*: Select one spell you can cast with a duration of 1 hour/level or greater. The duration of a single casting of that spell becomes Permanent. If dispelled, the effect returns within 1d4 rounds (like a magic item). The effect ends if subjected to a Mage's disjunction spell (though it is entitled to a Will save to resist, at your bonuses) or on your death/destruction.
    You may transfer ownership of this spell to another in a ritual lasting 1 hour, as long as they are capable of casting spells of that level. That character is then considered the original caster, and he gains the ability to further transfer ownership of the effect.
  • Phylactery*: You may place a part of your soul inside an item, granting you immunity to [Death] effects (or +2 turn resistance if you are undead). If you die your soul moves to this item 1 round later unless it is somehow trapped. You return to life adjacent to the item 1d10 days later, as per true resurrection except that even constructs and undead can be revived. If the item is destroyed, you lose a character level (and die, if your soul is within it at the time). You may have a total number of phylacteries in existence at a time equal to the number of times you have selected this talent.
  • Skill Mastery (Ex): The wizard becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When making a skill check with a wizard class skill, he may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so.

Eclectic Learning: At every 4th level a wizard adds one spell from any list to his spell list, but its level is increased by 1.

Craft Grimoire: At 5th level a wizard may craft grimoires, spellbooks containing one or more spells from any spell list. While he has a grimoire at hand a wizard can cast the spells contained within as if they were on the wizard spell list (with the act of reading the grimoire becoming an additional component), but the spell slot expended is 3 levels higher than normal. The spells do not gain any other benefit of an increased level, such as higher save DCs. Researching and adding a spell requires a Knowledge (arcana, religion or nature) check depending on its origin (DC = 15 + 3x spell level), which receives a +2 circumstance bonus if the wizard can see a demonstration of the spell during the process.
A grimoire can normally be used only by its creator; to use a grimoire belonging to another spellcaster you must succeed on a Spellcraft check to decode it. Failure results in a discharge of magical energy which deals 1d6 points of damage per (adjusted) spell level to the reader.

Improved Dispel: At 7th, 13th and 20th levels the wizard gains a +1 bonus on dispel checks, as well as to the DCs to dispel his spells.

Suppress Spell (Sp): At 10th level, on a successful use of Dismantle Spell a wizard may choose to suppress the spell's effects instead of ending it. This suppression lasts for 1 round or as long as the wizard concentrates on the spell, after which the spell returns to normal.

Craft Grand Grimoire: At 14th level a wizard may permanently invest a spell slot from any of his spellcasting classes into a grimoire, either as part of its creation or at a later date. Select one spell from the same class of the same level or lower; the wizard may read from the grimoire to cast that spell as a spell-like ability. He may do this 1/day if the spell is the same level as the sacrificed slot, +1/day for each level lower. He must pay XP and expensive material components as normal.
When adding the powers of a grand grimoire to an existing grimoire, the wizard may treat the spells contained within it as wizard spells, but daily uses are determined after applying the +3 level increase (eg. sacrificing a 7th-level slot for fireball would allow him to use it 2/day).
If a grand grimoire is destroyed, the spell splot returns to its owner immediately (but is considered expended until he next regains spells).

Timeless Body (Ex): At 17th level, a wizard no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the wizard still dies of old age when his time is up.

Reconfigure Spell (Sp): At 18th level, on a successful use of Dismantle Spell a wizard may choose to change any of the choices made when the spell was cast instead of ending it. He may choose to only partially modify the parameters if he wishes, eg. keeping half of the original targets of a multi-target spell and changing the others.

Eureka: At 19th level, spells a wizard casts from a grimoire use a slot 2 levels higher than normal, rather than 3. Spells gained from the Eclectic Learning class feature count as their original level, rather than their level +1.

New Feats

Apprentice Wizard [General]
You have learned the basics of magic.
Prerequisites: Must not have any levels of wizard
Benefit: You can cast cantrips (0-level spells) as a 1st-level wizard.
Special: If you ever gain a level of wizard, replace this feat with Precocious ApprenticeCArc or another feat for which you meet the prerequisites.

Extend Eldritch Blast [General]
Your eldritch blast can strike foes from greater distances.
Prerequisites: Eldritch Blast
Benefit: Your eldritch blast's range increases to Medium (100ft +10ft per caster level).
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 08:26:19 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Prime32

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #1: December 23, 2011, 05:46:38 PM »
Spell List

Lv0
Arcane Mark: Inscribes a personal rune (visible or invisible).
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Flare: Dazzles one creature (-1 on attack rolls).
Launch ItemSpC: Hurls Fine item up to Medium range.
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.
Message: Whispered conversation at distance.
Open/Close: Opens or closes small or light things.
Prestidigitation: Performs minor tricks.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.

Lv1
Alarm: Wards an area for 2 hours/level.
Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Dispel WardSpC: As dispel magic, but affects only wards.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Erase: Mundane or magical writing vanishes.
Faerie Fire: Outlines subjects with light, canceling blur, concealment, and the like.
Floating Disk: Creates 3-ft.-diameter horizontal disk that holds 100 lb./level.
Hold Portal: Holds door shut.
IdentifyM: Determines properties of magic item.
Magic Aura: Alters objectís magic aura.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Sleep: Puts 4 HD of creatures into magical slumber.
Unseen Servant: Invisible force obeys your commands.

Lv2
Arcane LockM: Magically locks a portal or chest.
Continual FlameM: Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
Daze Monster: Living creature of 6 HD or less loses next action.
Gust of Wind: Blows away or knocks down smaller creatures.
Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
Levitate: Subject moves up and down at your direction.
Magic MouthM: Speaks once when triggered.
Obscure Object: Masks object against scrying.
See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
Shatter: Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Whispering Wind: Sends a short message 1 mile/level.

Lv3
Arcane Sight: Magical auras become visible to you.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Hear or see at a distance for 1 min./level.
Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.
Dispel Magic: Cancels magical spells and effects.
Explosive Runes: Deals 6d6 damage when read.
Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.
Illusory ScriptM: Only intended reader can decipher.
Magic Weapon, Greater: +1/four levels (max +5).
NondetectionM: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
Secret Page: Changes one page to hide its real content.
Sepia Snake SigilM: Creates text symbol that immobilizes reader.
Shrink Item: Object shrinks to one-sixteenth size.
Sign of SealingSpC: Magical sigil protects door or chest, deals 1d4/level damage (max 10d4) if opened.
Tiny Hut: Creates shelter for ten creatures.
Wind Wall: Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.

Lv4
Arcane Eye: Invisible floating eye moves 30 ft./round.
Detect Scrying: Alerts you of magical eavesdropping.
Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
Fire TrapM: Opened object deals 1d4 damage +1/level.
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser: Stops 1st- through 3rd-level spell effects.
Minor Creation: Creates one cloth or wood object.
Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
Resilient Sphere: Force globe protects but traps one subject.
ScryingF: Spies on subject from a distance.
Secure Shelter: Creates sturdy cottage.

Lv5
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
False VisionM: Fools scrying with an illusion.
Mageís Faithful Hound: Phantom dog can guard, attack.
Mageís Private Sanctum: Prevents anyone from viewing or scrying an area for 24 hours.
Major Creation: As minor creation, plus stone and metal.
Overland Flight: You fly at a speed of 40 ft. and can hustle over long distances.
Passwall: Creates passage through wood or stone wall.
PermanencyX: Makes certain spells permanent.
Secret ChestF: Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
Symbol of PainM: Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
Symbol of SleepM: Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
Telekinesis: Moves object, attacks creature, or hurls object or creature.
Telepathic Bond: Link lets allies communicate.
Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles/level.

Lv6
Analyze DweomerF: Reveals magical aspects of subject.
Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
ContingencyF: Sets trigger condition for another spell.
Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but +20 on check.
Globe of Invulnerability: As lesser globe of invulnerability, plus 4th-level spell effects.
Guards and Wards: Array of magic effects protect area.
Legend LoreM F: Lets you learn tales about a person, place, or thing.
Sign of Sealing, GreaterSpC: Magical sigil protects door, chest, or open space, deals 1d6/level damage (max 20d6) if opened.
Symbol of PersuasionM: Triggered rune charms nearby creatures.
Symbol of FearM: Triggered rune panics nearby creatures.
True SeeingM: Lets you see all things as they really are.

Lv7
Control Weather: Changes weather in local area.
ForcecageM: Cube or cage of force imprisons all inside.
Instant SummonsM: Prepared object appears in your hand.
Mageís Magnificent MansionF: Door leads to extradimensional mansion.
Phase Door: Creates an invisible passage through wood or stone.
Plane ShiftF: As many as eight subjects travel to another plane.
Power Word Blind: Blinds creature with 200 hp or less.
Sequester: Subject is invisible to sight and scrying; renders creature comatose.
Spell Turning: Reflect 1d4+6 spell levels back at caster.
Symbol of StunningM: Triggered rune stuns nearby creatures.
Symbol of WeaknessM: Triggered rune weakens nearby creatures.
Teleport, Greater: As teleport, but no range limit and no off-target arrival.
Teleport Object: As teleport, but affects a touched object.

Lv8
Antipathy: Object or location affected by spell repels certain creatures.
BindingM: Utilizes an array of techniques to imprison a creature.
CloneM F: Duplicate awakens when original dies.
Dimensional Lock: Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Power Word Stun: Stuns creature with 150 hp or less.
Protection from SpellsM F: Confers +8 resistance bonus.
Symbol of DeathM F: Triggered rune slays nearby creatures.
SympathyF: Object or location attracts certain creatures.
Telekinetic Sphere: As resilient sphere, but you move sphere telekinetically.
Temporal StasisM: Puts subject into suspended animation.

Lv9
Astral ProjectionM: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Freedom: Releases creature from imprisonment.
GateX: Connects two planes for travel or summoning.
Imprisonment: Entombs subject beneath the earth.
Mageís Disjunction: Dispels magic, disenchants magic items.
Power Word Kill: Kills one creature with 100 hp or less.
RefugeM: Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
Teleportation CircleM: Circle teleports any creature inside to designated spot.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 03:42:17 PM by Prime32 »

Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #2: December 23, 2011, 08:37:16 PM »
I think I'm in love.. :love

(with the class, not Prime..)

..

(okay maybe a little.. ;) )

Seriously, perfect class. Fits the vanilla wizard concept perfectly. (That eldritch blast is my favorite aspect of it all, I've known something like that on the basic 'mage' class was required.)
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #3: January 08, 2012, 06:49:49 PM »
Considering just making Dismantle Spell an extension of Trapfinding, based on Spellcraft rather than Disable Device.

Online veekie

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #4: January 09, 2012, 09:18:52 AM »
Have both overlap?
Any pure magic effect, thats not a barrier or a triggered effect is spellcraft.
Any magical barrier or triggered effect(aka trap) can be unraveled with spellcraft or devices(and open lock for barriers)
Mundane barriers and triggered stuff only work with the mundane skill.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #5: February 01, 2012, 03:14:30 PM »
Bonus: sorcerers
Quote
Use PF sorcerer, but with the following changes:
  • Average BAB
  • One fewer spell known per level
  • Casting a spell in a higher-level slot makes it a spell of that level for all purposes.
  • The Eschew Materials bonus feat applies only to sorcerer casting, though you can take it normally to apply it to other classes.
  • Can cast sorcerer spells in light armor (and are proficient with it)
  • 3+Cha/day bloodline powers become at-will.
  • ToB-style multiclassing is in place.
  • Use the following level progression
Code: [Select]
1 Bloodline power, Cantrips, Eschew materials
2 Bloodline spell
3 Bloodline power
4 Bloodline spell
5 Bloodline feat
6 Bloodline spell
7 Spell power +1
8 Bloodline spell
9 Bloodline power
10 Bloodline spell
11 Bloodline feat
12 Bloodline spell
13 Bloodline feat
14 Bloodline spell
15 Bloodline power
16 Bloodline spell
17 Bloodline feat
18 Bloodline spell
19 Spell power +2
20 Bloodline power
Spell Power (Su): At 7th level, and again at 19th level, the sorcerer's caster level increases by 1.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 03:17:32 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Agita

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #6: February 06, 2012, 09:06:45 AM »
I have to say I (still) dislike the spell list a lot. It fits the flavor and all... but it's a) completely unsuited mechanically to spontaneous casting, and b) has depressingly few actual in-combat applications.

a) It's full of all kinds of situational, long casting time spells. They fit the flavor of the class wonderfully, but those are also what prepared casting is best suited to. You need one, you just sit down, prepare the spell, and cast it. You're going to be casting those 1-hour or 10-minute spells during downtime anyway, not while adventuring. Spontaneous casting, on the other hand, is inherently skewed towards spammable spells by design. What's the point of having these spells available on tap when you aren't going to be using them more than once in a full moon? The impact of this is lessened by the fact that you get the spells automatically rather than picking them as spells known, but the fact remains that you're taking spells that are best suited to one kind of casting mechanic and shoehorning them into another.

b) Its range of available actions is... Eldritch Blast, only without any of the eldritch shape/essence invocations that make it viable on a Warlock, plus 1-3 in-combat spells per level. And even fewer of those spells are anything but "situational defensive buff". Let's look at them by level:
1st: Two combat spells, Faerie Fire and Sleep. Sleep is awesome at low level but becomes obsolete fast, leaving you with just Faerie Fire. That's okay, because FF is a good spell, but it's still situational and more of an utility spell than a combat spell.
2nd: Three "combat" spells in Daze Monster, Gust of Wind, and Shatter. Daze Monster becomes obsolete once creatures outstrip the HD limit. Gust of Wind is a fun BFC spell, but still not what you'd call a staple combat spell. Shatter is much the same, except it's even more on the utility side.
3rd: Three spells: Deep Slumber, Dispel Magic, and Wind Wall. For Deep Slumber, see Sleep. Dispel Magic is a good staple spell, unless there is no magic flying around in an encounter. Rare as level goes up, but it still happens. Wind Wall, similarly, is a wonderful spell, but only when it's applicable.
4th: Two spells, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability and Resilient Sphere. Globe of Invulnerability has basically the same stipulations as Dispel Magic, it's useful when there's magic being tossed around and useless otherwise. Again, though, this is a fairly common occurrence. Resilient Sphere is the first spell on the list that's always or nearly always applicable, so no complaint.
5th: Two spells, Faithful Hound and Telekinesis. I'm not even sure if the Hound should count, given how weird it is, but there you go. That's okay, though, because Telekinesis is amazingly versatile enough that you probably only need it as a combat spell at its level. No complaints here.
6th: Greater Dispel Magic and Globe of Invulnerability. Same stipulations apply as for the lesser versions.
7th: Force Cage, Power Word Blind, Spell Turning (?). I'm not sure if Spell Turning should count, but there you go. Forcecage is pretty great and PWB is... adequate, at least, so I have no complaints at this level.
8th: Power Word Stun, Protection From Spells, and Telekinetic Sphere. Protection From Spells is pretty awful, but Telekinetic Sphere is cool, I guess. See Resilient Sphere.
9th: Gate, Disjunction, Power Word Kill. More than enough.
Please note that slapping all kinds of Symbols and Runes on something and then throwing it does not make those spells viable combat spells, because I as a player wouldn't touch that kind of cheese with a ten-foot pole if not in a campaign that explicitly encourages CO, and neither would many others, nor would many DMs like to see it. More pertinently, what it needs is actual ways to use its standard actions in combat.
Basically, especially at lower levels, it needs some kind of in-combat options that are not just plinking away with Eldritch Blast while looking bored if the situational spells you have aren't applicable.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 09:35:46 AM by Agita »
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #7: February 06, 2012, 02:56:59 PM »
Throw in a single invocation (shape/essence only) of each grade? (lv1/6/11/16)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 03:05:42 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Agita

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #8: February 06, 2012, 03:02:07 PM »
The spell list needs to be expanded, is what I'm saying. A few shapes/essences won't pull it out of fallback status on a full caster. What I'm saying is it should be just that, a fallback, rather than your main option.
My advice is maybe add some more [force] spells and/or some thematic battlefield control at the lower levels, then go sifting through Spell compendium for spells to add.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #9: February 06, 2012, 03:42:08 PM »
Prime32 is seeking to bringing the wizard to beguiller/warmage/dread necro here, and that means "gasp" that the wizard no longer has the perfect spell for every situation at the tip of his hands!

Right now it already has has good combat spells at every spell level. Sure some are situational, but when you have mutliple of them plus eldritch blast plus a class table full of other nifty abilities, you have no real reasons to complain.

By all means a few shape/essences sprinkled may be nice, but if you start throwing all the best spells out there for free, then it kinda defeats the point of this work.

Doubly so because this wizard can already nab extra spells with grimoire and Eclectic Learning. The fact that they take higher level spell slots is not a nerf, is a balance, as everybody knows there's plenty of uber low level spells (not to mention the usual trick of pulling lower level spells from obscure prcs). Wings of cover? Wings of Flurry? Yes please, even with a +1 modifier.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #10: February 06, 2012, 06:23:03 PM »
I like it, I really like it!
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #11: February 07, 2012, 03:20:01 AM »
Yeah, I'd say this is better as a utility-box wizard rather than a god-wizard. I'd rather see a quartet of this and the other three AS the main casters, pulling out the Sorcerer and Wizard altogether. Plus, perhaps, not invalidating the Warlock either.
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Offline Agita

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #12: February 07, 2012, 05:08:56 AM »
Yeah, I'd say this is better as a utility-box wizard rather than a god-wizard. I'd rather see a quartet of this and the other three AS the main casters, pulling out the Sorcerer and Wizard altogether. Plus, perhaps, not invalidating the Warlock either.
I wholeheartedly agree, but "utility box" is not a combat role. It's an out-of-combat role. This has absolutely nothing to do with power, it's only a question of how interesting the class is to play. No-one is demanding that the Wizard be GOD in combat (ignoring for a moment the fact that from a party balance standpoint, a GOD Wizard is, in concept, a good thing, compared to a Wizard who just flattens every encounter by themselves).
Allow me to reiterate, the following are the current Wizard's options in combat:
-Eldritch Blast. A mediocre touch attack as a fallback. It's perfectly fine as a fallback, but shouldn't have to be the default strategy. That's for the Warlock, who gets things that make it a (somewhat) viable default strategy. I said that this should not be what is done with the Wizard, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of invalidating the Warlock.
-Spells. As I've shown, the Wizard does not, in fact, get good combat spells at every level. At most levels, it gets some neat tricks that are very binary in nature - either they're applicable, or they're not applicable. At the levels it does get good combats spells, those spells actually already are on the high end of power (Telekinesis, Gate, the Spheres), so complaining that I'm advocating powering the Wizard up makes no sense. Its other combat spells ask yes/no questions. Is magic in play? If yes, then Dispel Magic and GoI are great spells. If no, then they're useless. Is the enemy's HD equal to or below a certain number [and is the enemy vulnerable to mind-affecting effects]? If yes [to both], then Sleep and Deep Slumber are awesome spells. If no [to either], then they're useless. Is ranged missile combat involved? If yes, then Wind Wall is a great spell. If no, then it's useless. My point is the following: In a combat situation, a character with this spell list is just going down a checklist of applicable actions. There's little to no strategy involved in determining the best move.

Once again, I don't want to see more powerful options added to the spell list. I want to see more interesting options. Let us consider, as an example, the effect of adding Persistent Blade (Spell Compendium) to the class's spell list. Being a blade of pure force, it has thematic precedent on the spell list, as well. You won't find this spell on any list of powerful spells, but it gives the Wizard a means of setting up some extra damage to go with his Blast and providing a flank for his best friend the Fighter, thus adding both teamwork and a bit of tactical thinking, all with the addition of a single mediocre to decent spell.
The spell list can be expanded with Eclectic Learning, so there's no need to include many extra spells of this nature, but the main spell list should provide a solid backbone and not force players to rely on Eclectic Learning to pick up good and interesting combat options.

The above is my main beef. The minor beef is that the role of "utility box" is non-synergistic with the mechanic of spontaneously cast spells known, for the reasons I've outlined before. This is the same problem that Favored Souls and other spontaneous divine casters encounter when they look at the core Cleric (or Druid) spell list and find out that it was designed with prepared casters in mind, as opposed to the Sorcerer/Wizard list, which was designed from the beginning to contain both spells suited to spontaneous casting and spells suited to prepared casting. By comparison, this is, again, a minor and mainly aesthetic flaw in this case, as you're not being forced to pick spells from a spell list designed for prepared casters, but get them automatically. If the main flaw is resolved (which shouldn't be too hard - I said it was a flaw, not that it's hard to fix), this one becomes largely a non-issue.
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #13: February 07, 2012, 11:10:09 PM »
Very good points to make, and I admit I was throwing out a bit of a generalized ethos for time, but I'd caution against expanding the list too widely. Even dropping in lower-power-than-standard spells at a given level, you're still adding content to a spell list which is already amongst the larger of these 4 specific classes' lists. The beguiler's list is a little larger, but the Dread Necro and Warmage have noticeably thinner lists. Whatever changes are made should be keeping that in mind.
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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #14: February 08, 2012, 01:25:44 AM »
Directly combat applicable spell effects shouldn't be an issue though, as the DN and Beguiler are primarily composed of such effects.
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Re: Wizard rework
« Reply #15: February 08, 2012, 04:03:57 AM »
Very good points to make, and I admit I was throwing out a bit of a generalized ethos for time, but I'd caution against expanding the list too widely. Even dropping in lower-power-than-standard spells at a given level, you're still adding content to a spell list which is already amongst the larger of these 4 specific classes' lists. The beguiler's list is a little larger, but the Dread Necro and Warmage have noticeably thinner lists. Whatever changes are made should be keeping that in mind.
A good point; as I said, it only needs to be a solid backbone of stuff to do. As veekie said, when looking at effectiveness in combat, you're looking mainly at the directly combat-applicable sells. Compare the list I compiled a few posts back, plus the combat-applicable spells that generally aren't cast in combat like Fly or GMW, to the Beguiler/Dread Necro/Warmage's, and suddenly it's not all that big.
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