Author Topic: JaronK's Tier list for classes.  (Read 109816 times)

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #100: June 08, 2016, 11:56:57 AM »
It's like a DMM Persist Cleric lite! And for once...it's a trick only artificers can do.
There is nothing the Artificer's can do that no one else can't.

Technically speaking, once a real Spellcaster uses Wish to create a Minor Schema of Concurrent Infusions he can in turn produce all the Minor Schema of Metamagic Item he wishes or even more importantly per the MiC you can just buy them anyway as long as the city is large enough. And because Extend Spell & Persist Spell have no required Spellcasting, any Barbarian in turn can use Flaws to take the Feats, purchase some Schemas (6.4k for metamagic item plus wand/staff costs), and Persist his favorite array of buffs using a Staff or Wand the moment he can afford one without sacrificing anything other than the Flaw penalties/bonuses.

And to really get into it, you don't even need access to Eberron for that. Complete Mage has a Metamagic Wand Grip glove that functions three times per day and it can apply your Persist Spell Feat to any Wand, you just have to pay the additional charges. But cost per charge on Wands is the cheapest form of magic out there, far better than a Schema. For example at 630gp/day you can run around with Persisted Wraithstrike which is only a bit over a 2.5k investment for it to last until your next level per standard expectations (4 encounters day, 13 encounters to level). So the cost to access a Schema of Metamagic Item all by it's self is almost triple the cost of simply using Wands. And WBL pays out more than it takes to hit next level's wealth is specifically designed as a forgive-and-forget grace for some expendable resources whereas the renewing Schema is counted against you for as long as you own it.

And the fact is, both methods work without having to be a specific Class. The idea a Monk cannot use Wands is strictly tied to arguments trying to measure the value of one Class's Features over another, but in all actual game play you're going to grab whatever you like and can use. And in that, the Artificer only offers negatives but that's another story for another day.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 08:57:07 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #101: July 29, 2016, 06:13:39 PM »
There is nothing the Artificer's can do that no one else can't.

Yes, I suppose you can replace almost any amount of functionality with enough magic items or castings of wish, but the point was that the artificer has actual class features other than crafting, that do something interesting and powerful at a reasonable level, with little to no investment. The class features/infusion list put it in the area of T3 without any items needed.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #102: July 29, 2016, 11:26:56 PM »
Unlike Imgur, we don't have an upvote the worst post you can think of day here.

After you strip away crafting and the rest of the gp-to-item abilities such as Metamagic Spell Trigger/Completion, Retain Essence of the very literal Craft Homunculus your left with two limited Skill boosts, Trapfinding, and some Bonus Feats. Also, since Infusions generally have to be cast on an item, often a worn or currently in use one, the Artificer's Infusions logically target already powerful or useful items to begin with; because it'd be retarded to target mundane gear and change your fancy enchanted gear out for it.

You're overall point, a very poor dismissal that everyone can buy fancy stuff doesn't miswarrent the Artificer, in a broad stroke would be correct. But as your post clearly demonstrates, you have very little knowledge of the Artificer's Class Features and I find it very likely your knowledge of the Artificer's Infusion List to be just as, if not more, limited than your knowledge of it's Class Features. So please, before posting take the ten minutes to look on a D&D Tools mirror and answer some basic questions of like how does the Artificer summon, scry, mass CC, actually use save-or-dies against people that don't rely on using Dragonmarks, etc. If your only answer is "Spell Storing!" then you already failed to make your point before you even posted, because unlike you I've already gone there and had this argument multiple times with people that paid more attention to the details.
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #103: July 30, 2016, 09:06:40 AM »
SorO, we get it; You disagree with the Tiers entirely. Stop harassing people over it and start your own version of it to have these discussions.

@Nytemare: The Artifcer's infusions really do suck outside of a small handful, and even those aren't encounter-worthy (they are usually used as part of an infinite combo, IIRC). The class' power comes from 1) cheaply crafting any magic item in the game, allowing it to imitate the other Tier 1s in form if not power and 2) reducing crafting costs to the point where your WBL won't feel it when you make a Ring of Three Wishes.

They literally do nothing without the WBL.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #104: July 30, 2016, 10:38:02 AM »
SorO, we get it; You disagree with the Tiers entirely. Stop harassing people over it and start your own version of it to have these discussions.
Psst, I didn't even mention the word Tier or imply it in that post or the one two months ago before that. It's simply been rebukes some of Nyte's inaccurate claims about the Artificer. But thanks for bringing up my disappointment with this thread for me, I can imagine how bad that could be for your implied goal so I hope your play works out for you.

Also I really want to leave this here, to primarily serve a observation of fact vs reality given the last few posts are really more about Nyte's concept of the Artificer Class instead of the factual version of the Class and maybe a quick shattering of ideals can pay out in the long run.
Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher).
Technically speaking, the Artificer makes the most expensive Magical Items in the game. Doesn't that just suck if you listen to everyone else saying the Arty is the most item efficient Class in the game?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 10:46:23 AM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #105: July 30, 2016, 10:53:26 AM »
Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher).
Technically speaking, the Artificer makes the most expensive Magical Items in the game. Doesn't that just suck if you listen to everyone else saying the Arty is the most item efficient Class in the game?

Feats reduce the costs. While a 20th level Artificer does have to craft the item at his actual class level, he's still reducing the price (plus who even crafts at that level? The campaign is over after a few more encounters).
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #106: July 30, 2016, 03:00:06 PM »
@Nytemare: The Artifcer's infusions really do suck outside of a small handful, and even those aren't encounter-worthy (they are usually used as part of an infinite combo, IIRC). The class' power comes from 1) cheaply crafting any magic item in the game, allowing it to imitate the other Tier 1s in form if not power and 2) reducing crafting costs to the point where your WBL won't feel it when you make a Ring of Three Wishes.

They literally do nothing without the WBL.

I still dispute this. I've played artificers from ~lvl3 to ~lvl 20, and two of them were in games without crafting. They performed just fine in the role I chose for them (trapmonkey/utility caster)

Quote
Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with..
Trapfinding, Int based, dungeoneering class skills. Infusion list has access to tools for dealing with niche combat challenges or general buffs. Sounds like a decent support/skillmonkey to me. Spell-Storing Infusion is a perfectly valid tool as well, as access to ALL spell lists spontaneously is definitely a unique skill.


@Soro. I AGREE with you that Artificers aren't amazing crafters. My Artificer handbook is made in the same style as Solo's truenamer handbook. It's a (rather silly) guide to using WBL and general crafting to reproduce other mechanics, with the Artificer slapped onto it as a thematic central point. Personally, I'd like for the illusion you are talking about (that artificer is broken as hell and shatters WBL) to die so I can play the class more often. Maybe I should remake that guide as a "serious" guide and remove the artificer from it entirely. Keeping the name though.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #107: July 30, 2016, 05:41:17 PM »
Feats reduce the costs.
There is nothing in the rules supporting the concept that crafting an item your self has any changes on Wealth By Level. DMG 135 even tells you WBL is a basis for balance and suggests that you strictly control it and even the official Ask Wizard response that even brings up crafting items for a profit gets swept under the rug and you're told the only reason the crafting Feats even exist are to explain how magic items are in game and how you should read the Magic Item Compendium for the updates on Magic Item availability.

To me, what you're doing really isn't any different than  trying to push a case that the Fighter should be useful or that Toughness should be a great Feat. You want something useless to have some kind of value and feel that such a reason into it's self is it's own supporting point. Except I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have to listen to you drone on and on if we were talking about Toughness.

While a 20th level Artificer does have to craft the item at his actual class level, he's still reducing the price (plus who even crafts at that level? The campaign is over after a few more encounters).
Who said I was only looking at level 20? At level 2 any Spellcaster with Scribe Scroll can pay 12.5gp & 0.5xp to make a new Scroll but an Artificer must use CL2 has to spend 25gp & 1xp to make the same Scroll. By the 6th level when the Artificer gets Craft Wand (a wizard gets it at lvl 5 btw) if he were to make a Wand of each available Spell Level it'd cost him him 13,500gp & 540xp compared to any other spellcaster's 8,250gp & 330xp cost.

Even if cost-reducing Feats were houseruled to work they are not Artificer exclusive. Anyone can take them, and thanks to the MiC/PHBII an entire party can split the Feat tax on crafting your items, assuming the Arcanes just don't use Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos, Gate, or some kind of Mental Pinnacle to Psychic Reformation to access and subsequently drop the required Feats when desired for maximum efficiency. Even free XP can be obtained by anyone willing to murder an Evil Humanoid on an Evil Alter which fits the well loved anti-hero cliche.

Quote
Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with..
Trapfinding, Int based, dungeoneering class skills. Infusion list has access to tools for dealing with niche combat challenges or general buffs. Sounds like a decent support/skillmonkey to me. Spell-Storing Infusion is a perfectly valid tool as well, as access to ALL spell lists spontaneously is definitely a unique skill.
Fixed your quote for you through you need to understand that it's still a pretty flimsy argument. A Samurai occasionally has the mechanical ability to win a combat-based Encounter but according to the post you pulled your quote from that doesn't prevent the Samurai from being listed as T6.

Likewise if you like we can stick to JK's dart thrown placement and still say the Artificer doesn't do one job decently by looking at the Classes that appear in the T3 & T4 lists. The Factotum & Beguiler both get the same Int-synergy for Search & Trapfinding except one has full 9ths & stealth and the other gets Inspiration & Int-to-Disable. They also get 6 Skill Points per level opposed to the Artificer's base of 4, but with UMD being absolutely required even if you ditch the required associated Crafting Skills the Artificer gets three Skills.

Dropping an entire rung to T4 the "skillmonkey" Artificer won't even pull the points the Rogue does and even through you may like his Spellstoring Infusion for being a throw-X-at-Encounters ominous win button, the Spelltheif's Steal Spell/SLA can be just as ominous, specially when casting acquired Spells into Spell Storing Arrows (infusions cannot be stored so no arty parallel), without requiring any XP investment. There is also the no PrC rule of being an Artificer. Since Item Creation and the Spell Storing Infusion explicitly use your Artificer Level opposed to your Caster Level any reliance on it also means your example of debate forgos nearly all possibility of PrCing out. So while the Spelltheif looks at the Chameleon & Hellbreaker for swapable crafting Feats & a better alternative of using stolen Supernatural Abilities to win. These T4'ers are more comparable to the Artificer than the outright superior T3ers.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 08:59:58 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #108: July 30, 2016, 07:20:35 PM »
Quote
There is nothing in the rules supporting the concept that crafting an item your self has any changes on Wealth By Level. DMG 135 even tells you WBL is a basis for balance and suggests that you strictly control it and even the official Ask Wizard response that even brings up crafting items for a profit gets swept under the rug and you're told the only reason the crafting Feats even exist are to explain how magic items are in game and how you should read the Magic Item Compendium for the updates on Magic Item availability.

The "ruling", if you want to call it that, talks about SELLING those crafted items for profit. It says jack shit about using them during a campaign. The DMG also only makes a suggestion; the only concrete rules are the chart and a statement: "No adventure meant for 7th level characters, for example, will require or assume that the party possesses a magic item that costs 20,000gp". This is something that falls outside of optimization's control: We cannot determine how the WBL will be regulated.

To me, what you're doing really isn't any different than  trying to push a case that the Fighter should be useful or that Toughness should be a great Feat. You want something useless to have some kind of value and feel that such a reason into it's self is it's own supporting point. Except I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have to listen to you drone on and on if we were talking about Toughness.

You knock that shit off right now. That is outright offensive.

Quote
Who said I was only looking at level 20? At level 2 any Spellcaster with Scribe Scroll can pay 12.5gp & 0.5xp to make a new Scroll but an Artificer must use CL2 has to spend 25gp & 1xp to make the same Scroll. By the 6th level when the Artificer gets Craft Wand (a wizard gets it at lvl 5 btw) if he were to make a Wand of each available Spell Level it'd cost him him 13,500gp & 540xp compared to any other spellcaster's 8,250gp & 330xp cost.

Are those numbers before or after cost reduction feats?

Quote
Even if cost-reducing Feats were houseruled to work they are not Artificer exclusive.

Artificers and Wizards are the only ones who can select them as bonus feats. Everyone else has to spend a normal feat or DCFS (if that's allowed). And if the DCFS is allowed the Artificer can still craft the items at a lower level (any CL5 item at 3rd level, so long as it doesn't duplicate a spell effect). This is a slew of items earlier than intended.

Quote
Anyone can take them, and thanks to the MiC/PHBII an entire party can split the Feat tax on crafting your items
,

Only if the items require a feat beyond the relevant item creation feat:

Quote from: MIC, 232
It's perfectly acceptable for two or more characters to work together to create a magic item, with each character supplying some of the prerequisites. The XP cost must always be paid by the character who supplies the item creation feat.

And there are no item creation rules in PH2. At all.

Quote
assuming the Arcanes just don't use Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos, Gate, or some kind of Mental Pinnacle to Psychic Reformation to access and subsequently drop the required Feats when desired for maximum efficiency. Even free XP can be obtained by anyone willing to murder an Evil Humanoid on an Evil Alter which fits the well loved anti-hero cliche.

The sacrifice rules are in a chapter of a book titled "Variant Rules". They're as allowed as asking the DM to use Spell Recharge when no one else is. Using them assumes the DM allows the variant at all.
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Online oslecamo

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #109: July 30, 2016, 08:29:02 PM »
Quote
There is nothing in the rules supporting the concept that crafting an item your self has any changes on Wealth By Level. DMG 135 even tells you WBL is a basis for balance and suggests that you strictly control it and even the official Ask Wizard response that even brings up crafting items for a profit gets swept under the rug and you're told the only reason the crafting Feats even exist are to explain how magic items are in game and how you should read the Magic Item Compendium for the updates on Magic Item availability.

The "ruling", if you want to call it that, talks about SELLING those crafted items for profit. It says jack shit about using them during a campaign. The DMG also only makes a suggestion; the only concrete rules are the chart and a statement: "No adventure meant for 7th level characters, for example, will require or assume that the party possesses a magic item that costs 20,000gp". This is something that falls outside of optimization's control: We cannot determine how the WBL will be regulated.

The text is pretty clear. The DM is expected to keep the player's power levels in check, and bling is power in D&D 3.X. That's why they give the WBL chart. And page 51 further points out that if the party ends with too much bling for their level, the DM is expected to cut it down.

How it's up to each DM, but it will still be cutting it down.

Your argument is the same that since the DMG doesn't specify what kind of monsters the party will face, then we cannot assume the party will face any monsters at all. All those random monster encounters and monster stat blocks? We cannot determine how they will be regulated! :rolleyes

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #110: July 30, 2016, 09:52:32 PM »
Sin, I realize that you've thrown professionalism right out the door but must I hold your hand the whole way? I have my own reputation to uphold here you know.

Anyway,
Quote from: PHBII's Web Enhancement
The following article explores several game options for transferring XP costs when creating magic items. While it may be easy enough to simply say "the fighter pays the XP cost for their own sword" a few additional considerations are discussed below.
And covered within the document are simply rules for sharing XP costs, a Spell that can be used to rip XP out of other characters as long as they agree to make the item (who gets the item or profit afterwards isn't covered), a Wondrous Item version of the Spell, and a Feat that adds a couple rituals for sharing XP costs.

Also you erroneously listed Wizard & Artificer only as having Crafting-related Bonus Feats even through I already brought up the Chameleon which through his daily swapable Feat can craft any Magic Item. And we're not talking the Core-default like the Artificer is limited too, but all Gems, Constructs, multiple Graft types, Contingencies, Scepters, Skull Talismens, Schemas, Runes, Aboleth Glyphs, Portals, even Grellcraft items and everything printed in Dragon Magazine but I have never paid attention to. - Also minor errata to my previous post, while I mentioned Psychic Reformation I somehow totally forgot to mention Feat Leeching your Cohorts. - And when in doubt,
Quote from: Silver Marches p62
Finally, a student or fellow may use the college’s laboratories and libraries for creating magic items even if she does not have the appropriate item creation feat. The character must pay a special fee equal to 10% of the market price of the item she creates. The wizard must meet all other requirements of the item to be created. For example, a wizard who wanted to create a wand of lightning bolt despite the fact she does not know the Craft Wand feat could do so by using the college’s resources—at a cost of 1,125 gp, 10% of the wand’s normal market price.
For a +10% hike to the base price it still comes out cheaper than the Artificer's rate (the wand example becomes 8,250gp material + 1,650gp fee & 330xp for spellcaster vs the artificer's 13,500gp & 540xp, and added bonus using 1xp=5gp rescale the caster pays a 11,550gp total but even fully blowing the full 6th level craft reserve of 150 the artificer still pays out 15,450gp), you can simply bypass the Feats entirely.

A&E also offers a guideline for pricing Feat-granting items making most Item Creation Feats a wearable 10k~15k investment an entire cityhost can pitch in on. You can also Charm/Gate/Simulacrum or POA a chipmonk into a Midgard Dwarf whom has a number of Item Creation Feats as a Racial Ability which also gives you a cool XP pool to draw off of once you hit it with a negative level. You know, in case somewhere inside your post you tried claiming Sacrifice wasn't allowed and didn't see an alternative source of free XPs being posted once I got home and studied for my answer rigorously by taking a three hour nap after cooking supper.
And I know you did but here is the thing. I also knew you would before you even posted, I also have a pretty good guess at what comes next too and really Sin? *sigh*
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 10:35:53 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #111: July 30, 2016, 10:36:44 PM »
Sin, I realize that you've thrown professionalism right out the door and are borderline tempted to abuse the crap out of your moderation powers in an effort to drag MMX's moderation through the muck to continue your very obliviously biaist point that even Ols is calling you out on but must I hold your hand the whole way? I have my own reputation to uphold here you know.

My moderation tone was used because you get very hostile, condescending, and disrespectful when trying to prove a point. I told you to simmer down and the rest of my posts have been as a normal board member; any perceived abuse of my status is made-up on your end.

Quote
Anyway,
Quote from: PHBII's Web Enhancement
The following article explores several game options for transferring XP costs when creating magic items. While it may be easy enough to simply say "the fighter pays the XP cost for their own sword" a few additional considerations are discussed below.
And covered within the document are simply rules for sharing XP costs, a Spell that can be used to rip XP out of other characters as long as they agree to make the item (who gets the item or profit afterwards isn't covered), a Wondrous Item version of the Spell, and a Feat that adds a couple rituals for sharing XP costs.

Was not aware of this. That is markedly absurd, as it allows followers and cohorts to hoof the cost.

Quote
Also you erroneously listed Wizard & Artificer only as having Crafting-related Bonus Feats even through I already brought up the Chameleon which through his daily swapable Feat can craft any Magic Item.

That's semantics and you know it (never mind that they cannot do so until 7th level at minimum).

Quote
And we're not talking the Core-default like the Artificer is limited too, but all Gems, Constructs, multiple Graft types, Contingencies, Scepters, Skull Talismens, Schemas, Runes, Aboleth Glyphs, Portals, even Grellcraft items. And while I mentioned Psychic Reformation I somehow totally forgot to mention Feat Leeching your Cohorts. And when in doubt,
Quote from: Silver Marches p62
Finally, a student or fellow may use the college’s laboratories and libraries for creating magic items even if she does not have the appropriate item creation feat. The character must pay a special fee equal to 10% of the market price of the item she creates. The wizard must meet all other requirements of the item to be created. For example, a wizard who wanted to create a wand of lightning bolt despite the fact she does not know the Craft Wand feat could do so by using the college’s resources—at a cost of 1,125 gp, 10% of the wand’s normal market price.
For a +10% hike to the base price, which is then divided in half for material costs which really only makes it +5%, which still comes out cheaper than the Artificer's rate, you can simply bypass the Feats entirely.

Your knowledge of system abuse exceeds mine, I admit that.

Quote
A&E also offers a guideline for pricing Feat-granting items making most Item Creation Feats a wearable 10k~15k investment an entire cityhost can pitch in on. You can also Charm/Gate/Simulacrum or POA a chipmonk into a Midgard Dwarf whom has a number of Item Creation Feats as a Racial Ability which also gives you a cool XP pool to draw off of once you hit it with a negative level. You know, in case somewhere inside your post you tried claiming Sacrifice wasn't allowed and didn't see an alternative source of free XPs being posted once I got home and studied for my answer rigorously by taking a three hour nap after cooking supper.

This is what I'm talking about. That condescending attitude of yours causes problems. I was not aware of Shining South or the PH2's web enhancement. In fact, there's a lot of things about this system that I don't know by heart. Stop talking down to people because you know these details and you won't meet so much resistance or aggravation from people you try to enlighten.

And while we're on the subject: Feats are not a direct measure of power. It is possible, in 3.5-legal terms, to make a Fighter 20 capable of casting 9th level spells without multiclassing or UMD. Just through feats. The Artificer may not have unique class features, but it does have a capacity to imitate the class features of Tier 1s in a way that other classes do not hold up to. In encounters, the Artificer holds up as well as any Tier 2 (if not Tier 1) with even minor optimization.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #112: July 31, 2016, 06:39:56 PM »
My moderation tone was used because you get very hostile, condescending, and disrespectful when trying to prove a point. I told you to simmer down and the rest of my posts have been as a normal board member; any perceived abuse of my status is made-up on your end.
You know a great fix to my "condescending" attitude that you perceive? Stop assuming you're right and posing a rebuttal that gets smacked down in the post before it and maybe try asking why I consider something the way I do and maybe without the perceived dickish attitude and assumptions drawn from ignorance or outright double standards present in a post I'm responding to and I may have an all together different theme.

And while we're on the subject: Feats are not a direct measure of power.
Also Bonus Feats matter when you tried moving to cost-reduction having some kind of bearing. Your intended follow up was the Artificer can take them in his normal slots while gaining item creation Feats for free opposed to another spellcasting having to take both. I never said the Feats were useful, I've been going on about how they are worthless. And this is also something that generally provokes me, I already covered this twice now and here I am still having to repeat my self >.>

Also this;
The Artificer may not have unique class features, but it does have a capacity to imitate the class features of Tier 1s in a way that other classes do not hold up to. In encounters, the Artificer holds up as well as any Tier 2 (if not Tier 1) with even minor optimization.
Nyte's failing to make a case it should even be T3 per JK's standards and you toss all of that discussion out the window and fluff it up to claim it's T2/T1 to push things. That's intended provocation.

Also that "mimic", all you're talking about is the Spell Storing Infusion. Without knowing exactly when an Encounter to happen at low levels it can time out before it's even used which is pretty detrimental seeing how your out on XP and the Slot either way. And seeing how generally most Infusions, Spell Storing included, takes a full minute to cast if you don't have AP to actually use your Infusions in combat, and then another round to actually cast the selected Spell in the case of Spell Storing, by "Encounter" you mean vs traps that are not currently killing you. And I'm pretty sure you knew that, otherwise. Well imagine the otherwise, a guy named Sin with no knowledge on the subject is purposely provoking another poster. There is a name for that and I'm sure you can imagine it.

Remember, it takes two to argue. Just because you feel insulted doesn't mean your not insulting someone else.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 06:42:38 PM by SorO_Lost »
What would happen if you were to climb to what you think my ego is and jump to what your post says your IQ is?
Neutrality is harder than you think.

Online oslecamo

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #113: July 31, 2016, 07:09:44 PM »
+1
I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that an artificer takes "minor optimization" to hold up to anything when it's basically the most number-crunching class in the game. You can't do anything without permanent items that need to be prepared beforehand converting limited treasure and exp and then you also need to juggle infusions and your special unique snowflake resource measured in hundreds/thousands of units and then you have to dumpster drive through everybody's spell list.

Artificer is the excell spreadsheet class. Your sheet is gonna have more stuff written on it than everybody else's put together to do anything useful in the campaign.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 07:11:38 PM by oslecamo »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #114: July 31, 2016, 08:09:38 PM »
And seconded, it takes a lot of game knowledge & optimization to make an Artificer useful and that kind of effort when put into anything will produce the same results.
What would happen if you were to climb to what you think my ego is and jump to what your post says your IQ is?
Neutrality is harder than you think.