Author Topic: JaronK's Tier list for classes.  (Read 107775 times)

Offline wilconran13

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #20: November 18, 2011, 12:30:13 AM »
Like the Idea of tiers. Personally think that bards, monks and Paladin's are a few tiers too low, but that probably just my favorite classes.

Offline Solo

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #21: November 18, 2011, 12:34:25 AM »
Bard (tier 3) can't be tier 2 because it just can't compete with the other stuff that is in tier 2.

Likewise for monks and paladins.
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Offline lans

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #22: November 18, 2011, 12:44:18 AM »
The Monk has several ACFs and variants that can up it a tier or two when you stack almost all of them.

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #23: November 18, 2011, 11:37:29 PM »
For tier two it says "Eurdite" rather than "Erudite". Sorry to nitpick.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #24: November 19, 2011, 05:57:38 PM »
The Monk has several ACFs and variants that can up it a tier or two when you stack almost all of them.
Is the Monk even on the list yet? :p

Tiers isn't a D&D exclusive term and JaronK's messed up list isn't the goto standard. And as the other board proved, it doesn't matter what the community debated on the ranking of a class, JaronK wasn't going to change it. For you that's probably a problem, for new DMs it's misleading, for me I updated the section that needed updating in as little as eight sentences, because really the class examples are not the big part and I got to highlight what magic can do for you. Everyone who has ever played a fighting game online (or in an arcade) is aware of tiers between large sets of characters, while specifically no one agrees on the ranking everyone at least agrees Shin Akuma is cheap, eer Wizards are powerful which makes the list understandable even if it is horribly inaccurate.

What is useful is an explanation of how the tiers would interact with the problems throw at them from the DM, and for each player to readily recognize the imbalance and settle into a gentleman's agreement with each other. And that's the reason it has stayed so popular, it delivers an explanation of what to expect. The concept really is spot on which simply is great, details could improve but they won't so just move on.
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Offline Soundwave

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #25: November 19, 2011, 06:37:00 PM »
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Is the Monk even on the list yet?

It's been on the list since before the first time you mentioned it.

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Tiers isn't a D&D exclusive term

Irrelevant.

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and JaronK's messed up list isn't the goto standard.

By most sources it is. Find me an alternative list with a larger view history or one thats referenced more often and I'll happily retract this statement.

Secondly,
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And that's the reason it has stayed so popular, it delivers an explanation of what to expect.

So you are in fact aware of it being the "goto list" of tiers.

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And as the other board proved, it doesn't matter what the community debated on the ranking of a class, JaronK wasn't going to change it.

Incorrect. Said list was updated and adjusted based on feedback given by the people participating in the thread.
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Everyone who has ever played a fighting game online (or in an arcade) is aware of tiers between large sets of characters, while specifically no one agrees on the ranking everyone at least agrees Shin Akuma is cheap, eer Wizards are powerful which makes the list understandable even if it is horribly inaccurate.

Irrelevant and incorrect, The smashboards community had  and continues to have a widely accepted tier list.

Final NTSC Tier list for SSBM: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294748
Current Tier list for Brawl(horrible game imo): http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294748

Streetfighter: http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_List

Infact most fighting games DO have tier lists to gauge the strengths and weakness of various characters or "classes" these serve MANY purposes for those of us involved in the fighting game community as well as those looking to understand the mechanics behind games in a more in depth fashion.

Not everyone is required to agree over time however a general consensus has been shown to arise. Threads just like this one are integral in those discussions.

You seem to be applying your concept of what a tier is for in direct contradiction to what the lists author wrote his intentions were.

See the introduction Here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0

Am I the only one nonplussed by seeing these attempts to deliberately mislead people or derail topics to further a personal vendetta against the original poster? After reading through your post history on the previous board it just comes across as quasi ambulance chasing  :-\

Edited for sources and clarity.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 07:02:04 PM by Soundwave »

Offline JaronK

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #26: November 19, 2011, 07:07:49 PM »
For tier two it says "Eurdite" rather than "Erudite". Sorry to nitpick.

Fixed it. 

And I really should get around to rating the Monk ACFs, but I haven't played with them.

JaronK

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #27: November 19, 2011, 09:53:47 PM »
What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?

(Should I make a separate thread for this question?)
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #28: November 19, 2011, 10:42:03 PM »
<snip>I will argue with you over tiers in every thread possible. I am a devoted and loyal follower and I will highlight every mention of you saying this is useful and throw it in your face at any criticism you have.</snip>
Neat.

And I really should get around to rating the Monk ACFs, but I haven't played with them.
Is it bad that as much as I like the Dark Moon Disciple I still have yet to play one for it? >.>

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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #29: November 20, 2011, 07:39:12 AM »
Tiers isn't a D&D exclusive term and JaronK's messed up list isn't the goto standard. And as the other board proved, it doesn't matter what the community debated on the ranking of a class, JaronK wasn't going to change it. For you that's probably a problem, for new DMs it's misleading, for me I updated the section that needed updating in as little as eight sentences, because really the class examples are not the big part and I got to highlight what magic can do for you. Everyone who has ever played a fighting game online (or in an arcade) is aware of tiers between large sets of characters, while specifically no one agrees on the ranking everyone at least agrees Shin Akuma is cheap, eer Wizards are powerful which makes the list understandable even if it is horribly inaccurate.

I'm going to have to agree with this. Jaron has his own ideas of how things work. Some of them are on target, others are incredibly off base. Such as freaking out about encountering at level creatures in their natural environments and them using said environments to their advantage. I have my own ideas as to how tiers work, but since it goes against the groupthink I suspect it will be a waste of my time to write it out.

Offline veekie

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #30: November 20, 2011, 08:17:02 AM »
It remains a useful list of differentiation, and works just as well across game types as a means of quantifying power. Up to T4, its a simple matter of power, above that its a measure of versatility.
Of course, the actual metric isn't exactly linear, things do work in two axis after all.
Power's metric cuts off at T4, but it has a similar spread(just that +infinite damage is the same as +enemy health damage) in practice. You can say that T4s have enough power to solve a problem(namely a fight), that T5s do not have enough power to solve a problem, but theres no measure for having power in excess of solving the problem, and power in massive excess on their own.

Versatility's metric likewise, starts at T4 and goes up from there. T4s can deal with one issue, then T3s multiple, and T1s any issues.

Two axis is a bit hard to quantify though. You often see Power without versatility(just about every fighter 'fix'), but the inverse is more common in other games.
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Offline Soundwave

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #31: November 20, 2011, 10:34:45 AM »
I would argue versatility in DnD at least in regards to combat IS power. The bigger the toolbox a class has access to the more versatile and the more likely one will have access to the correct tool at the correct time.

Thus the most versatile classes with the largest toolboxes are therefor the most powerful. Which brings us to a tier list such as the above.

@ BB: I've read many of your posts as well and would love to see a treatise of your own on the matter. Threads like these are an excellent place for exactly that kind of discussion. I'm certain any write up you put your attention to would be worth a read.

@Imperator: An excellent question, Can we as a group agree on some criteria for such a thing? As I see spell progression as a comparatively large toolbox of sorts I would posit that as a potential source but perhaps others might have suggestions as well?

« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 10:37:12 AM by Soundwave »

Offline veekie

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #32: November 20, 2011, 01:39:43 PM »
Naw, look at the Tiers again.

High Versatility, Low Power - Basic Truenaming, its flexible to be sure, but without effort put into optimizing your check you aren't going to be affecting much with it. If you lower Versatility to below average, you have the monk as well, it has a bunch of options but none of them do jack.
High Power, Low Versatility - Frenzied Berserker, its enormously powerful...at the one thing. And just that one thing. Reduce the power and you get the Fighter, which can be pretty good, but just at the one thing, and only just at that.
High Power and Versatility - T1s, especially the druid, cleric and artificer, with extremely broad day-to-day versatility, and generally stronger stats as well. Reduce versatility a little and you wind up with T2s. Reduce both to medium and you get T3s.
Low Power and Versatility - At the extreme end here you have the Samurai and Commoner, who can't do anything.

So both metrics agree on their extreme ends:
T5s and below have neither versatility nor power.
T1s and above require both versatility and power.
Some T5s have versatility, but not the power to back it up in any of their approaches. Jack of all trades without enough power at any trade.
Some T2s have power but not the versatility, sorcerors and the like have enough raw spell access to get a lot of bang, but not enough to get ALL of the bang.
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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #33: November 20, 2011, 01:58:41 PM »
I've made a topic to discuss what lower tier classes need to become higher tier. It's here.

@ Veekie
Your post says what are tiers about. I'm asking what a specific class needs to increase tier. To you it may be obvious, but I'm not that versed in D&D philosophy to come up with it myself, that's why I'm asking.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 02:02:14 PM by ImperatorK »
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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #34: November 20, 2011, 02:05:43 PM »
It remains a useful list of differentiation, and works just as well across game types as a means of quantifying power. Up to T4, its a simple matter of power, above that its a measure of versatility.
Of course, the actual metric isn't exactly linear, things do work in two axis after all.
Power's metric cuts off at T4, but it has a similar spread(just that +infinite damage is the same as +enemy health damage) in practice. You can say that T4s have enough power to solve a problem(namely a fight), that T5s do not have enough power to solve a problem, but theres no measure for having power in excess of solving the problem, and power in massive excess on their own.

Despite my conflicts with Jaron, the concept of tiers is sound. Just he draws the dividing lines in the wrong places, for the wrong reasons, and comes to the wrong conclusion based on those tiers. 3 up is primarily defined by what it can do. 4 down is primarily defined by what it cannot do. The correct conclusion here is to stick to 3 up, not that anything works in the right game.

As for the lines between tiers themselves, 6 essentially can't do anything. 5 is either a one trick pony or those who can't do much (only not in 6 because 6 is the NPC class tier). 4 is the better one trick ponies, as the ones that try to do more than one thing here still don't work that well. 3 up you start encountering diverse characters.

In terms of specific entries, skills are overvalued by the tier system, and the lines between classes at 3 up are way off. If it's based on 1s having plenty of TO material, 2s having some and 3s not having any that's not true as there is plenty of TO to go around. If it's based on spells Beguilers have most of the same offensive and defensive options as Wizards, TO material excluded. Conversely, Duskblades have no special defenses and only damage for offense and Warblades aren't much better. If it's based on access to game breaking tricks anyone can get most of those if you're counting them as a valid metric.

As a short summary though, saying higher tier = more and better spells is generally accurate. Likewise, skills being low tier is also quite accurate, assuming that they are all you have. If not it's just a non significant part of your character.

Just look at what characters do. Now a Warblade is going to be a DPS character, same as many others. What differentiates him from his other, lower tier brethren is defense and support maneuvers so that he is somewhat less squishy. He is also better able to get off full attacks due to Sudden Leap, etc meaning he can better use the tools that he has.

A Beguiler is going to have a bunch of different save or loses. Many, but not all of these are mind affecting. They're also going to have an array of defensive spells. In short, they're not going to play that differently than a Wizard in combat, except that they have a better base casting mechanic, and they're not as good out of combat.

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #35: November 20, 2011, 02:07:01 PM »
Like the Idea of tiers. Personally think that bards, monks and Paladin's are a few tiers too low, but that probably just my favorite classes.
Paladins have a well-designed first 5 levels.  Beyond that, it goes to complete shit.  It's really so bad, that you kinda have to take an ACF for that terrible Remove Disease ability just to justify the Paladin as a Tier 4 class, otherwise it's extremely limited spellcasting makes it look more like a Fighter in terms of power level, especially since MAD is making their Strength/Constitution lower than a Fighter's.

I think the Divine Bard really should be put up for consideration as a Tier 2 class.  The Wisdom requirement to learn spells is a non-nerf, since Bards already want 15 Wisdom for Words of Creation, anyway and it still has bonus spells/spells per day based off Charisma.  Changing the spells from Arcane to Divine opens up the possibility for DMM: Persist, and makes it easier for the Bard to qualify for classes that grant domains, filling in a few holes in his spell list.  Also, the variant itself adds some real spectacular spells to his list, even if they are delayed compared to a Cleric, most notably is Commune (read: a significantly more powerful version of COP, but with a small XP component attached).

Monks are right at home at Tier 5, though.  Aside from Wildshape Monk (which is strong for the same reasons as Wildshape Ranger is strong) and Martial Monk (which is, frankly, still only good for a 2-level dip), none of the ACFs really give Monks anything that can't be done better by a Tier 4 class.  Even the highly acclaimed Dark Moon Disciple sub-levels, really the only thing that might make the Monk Tier 4, can be done better by picking up a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, or just plain getting the Dark template.

What would each of the tier 4 classes need to become tier 3?

(Should I make a separate thread for this question?)
Possibly.  I have some answers I could throw out there that would take many pages.

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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #36: November 25, 2011, 12:26:35 AM »
One of the things about the Tier system is that Tiers are subjective when in the presence of optimization skill, and this is one of the most common complaints leveled towards the system. I would like to start a project where we catalogue the "tier ranges", or how optimization affects an individual class' tier (before PrCs), in a way that people can understand that Tier 2 does not always mean Tier 2.

Would anyone be interested in helping out with this (as it will require reviewing each individual class and determining their spectrum)? I will explain more if there are enough voices wanting to pitch in.
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Offline zugschef

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #37: November 25, 2011, 01:42:16 AM »
there should be a tier list modeled after the following three questions:
1. is it easy to build?
2. is it easy to play?
3. is it easy to break?

Offline veekie

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #38: November 25, 2011, 05:37:20 AM »
Well, the metrics here are base tier power(played naive, sticking to the fluff suggestions), maximum power(which runs up against the issue of character vs class derived power and how much you could probably get away with in an actual game) and effort to gain ratio. Looks pretty hard to quantify into a neat numerical ranking. Theres also ease of actual play.

Though I guess a number and a letter might work. Number for the 'tier spread', anchored to the 'base' optimiality. Letter for the effort to gain ratio.
So for example cleric might be T3B2, as played naive(heal+buffbot) its going to be performing at T3, has one of the lower effort to gain ratios(effort involved: pick spells) and goes all the way to T1 when all effort is put in.

Seems to me it might be too complex to be easily digested though.
EDIT: Might make more sense to have the second number be the maximum tier and the first the minimum though. Easier to read.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 05:39:29 AM by veekie »
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Offline Gavinfoxx

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #39: November 27, 2011, 08:39:25 PM »
You should add some of the information in the 'base class reference and tier information' thread into this main version...
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