Author Topic: JaronK's Tier list for classes.  (Read 107777 times)

Offline DavidWL

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #40: November 28, 2011, 01:51:06 AM »
For the record:  JaronK has, I would argue, a very reasonable tier system, based on quite good (but not amazing) optimization.  He has be behaved both reasonably and intelligently.

If you have a problem with the placement of one of the classes in the tiers, google for it, and if it hasn't been addressed before, start a thread, and we can all discuss the specifics.

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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #41: November 28, 2011, 05:13:36 AM »
Well, the metrics here are base tier power(played naive, sticking to the fluff suggestions), maximum power(which runs up against the issue of character vs class derived power and how much you could probably get away with in an actual game) and effort to gain ratio. Looks pretty hard to quantify into a neat numerical ranking. Theres also ease of actual play.
The genius part is things don't change all that much.

For instance you rank the Cleric T3XYZ because it heals. Well, when? During combat wouldn't even validate that T3 mention once they have access to Heal which does out scale a monster's damage. Negating the entire attack sequence of a monster is virtually better than trying to use a debuff to the same effect since they could bring their SR or Saves into account. It's a far cry from the best option, but Clerics also naturally obtain Save or Die spells they can utilize during the first round, as well as summon spells and even dangerous Mark spells which can be precast on items and tossed (seen here) or even carried in hand and dropped as a free action. And just what is it they do out of combat besides solve you're problems? Well conically, they are the only one who heals or raises dead other than the depreciated Healer. Pretty unreplaceable I'd say. So pretty much end back up exactly where they started, more useful than most other classes.

Take the Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, all they do is fight. Everyone has combat talent, even domesticated animals, D&D is a combat oriented game. They struggle to even preform their role too, ever seen a Barbarian forgo charging? Did he come close to the power of Strikes? How about non-attack/damage effects? Truth is, they still suck and have to optimize to keep up with the Druid's spellbuffed pet.

And things don't change all that much in maximum power either. Which one is "stronger", Wizard or Sorcerer? More spells vs knows them all and learns the a level sooner. No real contest. You'll find placement is again the same. A few nitpicks on certain classes could be found if you really got into the details, under any generalized measurement, but the average comes out to the same thing. If anything, the additional details prompt people to argue those points opposed to a more generalized description.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #42: November 30, 2011, 07:02:07 AM »
I'd still like to see Dragonfire Adept get added to the list.  Probably ranks the same as warlock, though the Entangling Exhalation feat vastly improves their BFC.
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Offline Gavinfoxx

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #43: November 30, 2011, 01:41:07 PM »
The thing is, classes like Dragonfire Adept and other more obscure classes WERE added to this list... or at least a version of it:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0
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Offline jywu98

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #44: March 01, 2012, 05:19:38 PM »
What tier would the Psionic Artificer be?

Offline Prime32

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #45: March 01, 2012, 06:01:27 PM »
What tier would the Psionic Artificer be?
An artificer is Tier 1. A psionic artificer is an artificer who can also craft psionic items, without losing any of his existing abilities. So... yeah.

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #46: March 01, 2012, 06:44:58 PM »
What tier would the Psionic Artificer be?
An artificer is Tier 1. A psionic artificer is an artificer who can also craft psionic items, without losing any of his existing abilities. So... yeah.

Huh? I thought they crafted psionic items instead of magical ones. I completely missed that?

Offline veekie

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #47: March 01, 2012, 09:39:12 PM »
Psionic-Magic transparency, the only difference goes to the Infusions, which don't matter a whole lot to the Artificer's tier anyway.
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Offline jywu98

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #48: March 01, 2012, 10:13:39 PM »
Psionic-Magic transparency, the only difference goes to the Infusions, which don't matter a whole lot to the Artificer's tier anyway.

Could you explain better? I'm not very familiar with it.

Offline veekie

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #49: March 01, 2012, 10:32:06 PM »
Basically, any psionic effect can have a magical equivalent and vice versa.
While normally you would still need to find a suitable substitute power as prereqs, the Artificer bypasses the prerequisite with class features, so is able to create any magic item as their psionic equivalent. Differences do appear though, particularly with spell trigger/spell completion items(since theres not always an equivalent psionic power), which might lose mileage, but not enough to drop a tier.
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Offline jywu98

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #50: March 13, 2012, 10:35:57 AM »
Isn't Rokugan third-party?

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #51: March 13, 2012, 07:10:03 PM »
Isn't Rokugan third-party?

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to with your question, but the original 3.0 Oriental Adventures was published by WotC.  So, while all of the other Rokugan material is 3rd party, the first book is not. 

Offline isinghar

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #52: April 09, 2012, 10:09:35 PM »
into which tier is the Divine Mind ranked?

Offline lans

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #53: April 10, 2012, 07:43:56 AM »
I think its tier 5, but most people put it at tier 6

Offline Garryl

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #54: April 10, 2012, 10:53:40 AM »
If the Paladin is T5 as anything other than a 2-5 level dip, then I don't see why the Divine Mind wouldn't be also. Less dippable, but comparable manifesting to the Paladin's spellcasting, and the mantle powers aren't too shabby. The auras are barely worth mentioning, but you get multiples later on so they can add up to something non-trivial. Not really strong or anything, but good enough that you won't want to forget them (at least, if your baseline comparison is the Paladin).

They also have one poorly written ACF that gets them lots of high level Astral Constructs as a PLA. A level 9 AC 1/day at level 10 will actually make up for a fair bit (my numbers may be off slightly since I haven't read the ACF in a while, but it's somewhere in that range).

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #55: April 11, 2012, 08:27:35 AM »
Isn't Rokugan third-party?

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to with your question, but the original 3.0 Oriental Adventures was published by WotC.  So, while all of the other Rokugan material is 3rd party, the first book is not.
Same with Dragonlance, sort of. First book was published by WotC and the company that worked on it went on to publish their own, however they did have official WotC endorsement making it 2nd party like the Dragon Magazine.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #56: August 24, 2012, 09:06:20 PM »
Has there ever been mention of the three Incarnum classes in the tier list?
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Offline lans

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #57: August 25, 2012, 11:07:10 AM »
There is some debate on them
Soulborn is considred tier 5
Incarnate and Totemist are both considered either 3 or 4. I haven't seen a list put them both as 3 or 4, so it might be personal bias towards or against one.

Offline Scottzar

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #58: October 07, 2012, 06:15:41 AM »
This is a serious question: in a high CO, non TO game, isn't it agreed that a paladin should be routinely outperforming warblades and the like? Swift action spells + Standard time Wizard Casting + DMM shenanigans + good ACF's (e.g. MFK) are > manoeuvres as far as I know.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #59: October 07, 2012, 08:42:19 AM »
This is a serious question: in a high CO, non TO game, isn't it agreed that a paladin should be routinely outperforming warblades and the like? Swift action spells + Standard time Wizard Casting + DMM shenanigans + good ACF's (e.g. MFK) are > manoeuvres as far as I know.
That appears to be a matter of a specific build in a specific environment, rather than the paladin class in general, and has not been generally agreed, to my knowledge.
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