Author Topic: JaronK's Tier list for classes.  (Read 109819 times)

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #60: October 29, 2012, 04:17:02 PM »
This is a serious question: in a high CO, non TO game, isn't it agreed that a paladin should be routinely outperforming warblades and the like? Swift action spells + Standard time Wizard Casting + DMM shenanigans + good ACF's (e.g. MFK) are > manoeuvres as far as I know.

The tier list assumes decent/middling optimization, not high-end.  On the extreme high end of things a paladin can certainly perform to that level thanks to all the supplements.

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Offline malonkey1

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #61: February 21, 2013, 11:40:12 AM »
From Magic of Incarnum, I'd say Totemist is solid Tier 3, possibly Tier 2, due to their obscenely huge number of natural attacks, and numerous other potent Soulmeld abilities.

Incarnate is probably Tier 3-4, has some decent abilities and versatility, but it isn't overpowering.

Soulborn is Tier 5, possibly Tier 6 if you're being really mean. They have some of the versatility of Meldshapers, but their Soulmeld list isn't very good, and they're pretty much only half-meldshapers. Like Fighters, they can be excellent at their specialization, but not a huge amount of good elsewhere.

Offline InnaBinder

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #62: February 21, 2013, 07:21:47 PM »
From Magic of Incarnum, I'd say Totemist is solid Tier 3, possibly Tier 2, due to their obscenely huge number of natural attacks, and numerous other potent Soulmeld abilities.

Incarnate is probably Tier 3-4, has some decent abilities and versatility, but it isn't overpowering.

Soulborn is Tier 5, possibly Tier 6 if you're being really mean. They have some of the versatility of Meldshapers, but their Soulmeld list isn't very good, and they're pretty much only half-meldshapers. Like Fighters, they can be excellent at their specialization, but not a huge amount of good elsewhere.
Totemists don't really have anything that breaks the game, which is necessary for Tier 2 by my understanding.  That puts them squarely in Tier 3, I'd think, which is where I most often see them slotted.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #63: February 21, 2013, 07:28:25 PM »
Keep in mind that if you think your class is Tier X, it's probably X-1.  Everybody optimizes their preferred class above what might be considered "standard."
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Offline veekie

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #64: February 22, 2013, 06:58:55 AM »
From Magic of Incarnum, I'd say Totemist is solid Tier 3, possibly Tier 2, due to their obscenely huge number of natural attacks, and numerous other potent Soulmeld abilities.

Incarnate is probably Tier 3-4, has some decent abilities and versatility, but it isn't overpowering.

Soulborn is Tier 5, possibly Tier 6 if you're being really mean. They have some of the versatility of Meldshapers, but their Soulmeld list isn't very good, and they're pretty much only half-meldshapers. Like Fighters, they can be excellent at their specialization, but not a huge amount of good elsewhere.
Totemists don't really have anything that breaks the game, which is necessary for Tier 2 by my understanding.  That puts them squarely in Tier 3, I'd think, which is where I most often see them slotted.
A low-ish T3 actually, along with the ToB classes, while they have access to a variety of effects, they don't really do much more than hit people a lot of times with it. Higher T3 like the bard, dread necromancer or beguiler packs in a much wider variety of utility effects and alternate attack forms, whereas if something can deal with lots of natural weapons, it more or less is stumped.
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Offline malonkey1

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #65: February 23, 2013, 10:30:09 AM »
+1
A low-ish T3 actually, along with the ToB classes, while they have access to a variety of effects, they don't really do much more than hit people a lot of times with it. Higher T3 like the bard, dread necromancer or beguiler packs in a much wider variety of utility effects and alternate attack forms, whereas if something can deal with lots of natural weapons, it more or less is stumped.

You have a good point there. Totemist is low T3. Would that put Incarnate Tier 4 and Soulborn Tier 5?

Offline lans

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #66: February 23, 2013, 10:49:12 AM »
+1
I put incarnates at high tier 4, they can do a wide variety of things, but tend to only be able to do one at a time, or not very well.

Soulborns are a little under paladins for the most part. Both get smites, necrocarnum zombie<=mount,  melds=<spells.


Offline linklord231

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #67: February 23, 2013, 01:55:31 PM »
I put incarnates at high tier 4, they can do a wide variety of things, but tend to only be able to do one at a time, or not very well.

Soulborns are a little under paladins for the most part. Both get smites, necrocarnum zombie<=mount,  melds=<spells.

Soulborns Don't get the splat support that paladins do though.  A Soulborn is a little worse than a core only paladin, but significantly worse than an "anything goes" one.  Maybe not enough to drop all the way to Tier 6, but I'd still put them mid Tier 5 at the highest. 
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Offline veekie

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #68: February 24, 2013, 12:20:07 AM »
Actually, looking at the Incarnate and Soulborn, they would either be a very low T3 or T5. They don't meet the narrow domain effectiveness requirements to be classified as T4.
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Offline lans

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #69: February 24, 2013, 08:52:14 AM »
+1
Actually, looking at the Incarnate and Soulborn, they would either be a very low T3 or T5. They don't meet the narrow domain effectiveness requirements to be classified as T4.
I disagree

Quote
Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining.

The incarnate can do a lot, just exceptionally well.

Offline veekie

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #70: February 24, 2013, 09:01:53 AM »
The question is if it meets the reasonable competence condition I suppose.
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Offline Agita

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #71: February 24, 2013, 11:01:40 AM »
The question is if it meets the reasonable competence condition I suppose.
It's up there, yes. It doesn't do its various things well enough to be up in T3 with the Factotum, but I'd put it at a solid-ish Tier 4. Soulborn goes a bit lower than Paladin, I think, since Smite optimization should still apply but a lot of other goodies don't, so I'd put it at a mid-T5 or so. It certainly doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the Samurai.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #72: March 24, 2013, 08:57:43 PM »
What tier would be Bard with access to Wizard/Sorcerer spell list for his spells known? I'm thinking about homebrewing/houseruling a Wizard that's at most a strong tier 3. Bard is tier 3, but it's not versatile enough to replace the T1-2 arcane casters. I'm afraid that the additional spell lists will bring him to T2.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #73: March 24, 2013, 09:07:24 PM »
So long as you keep 6th level spells as the highest, it'll probably remain T3.  Remember, T2 is mostly about power that just nukes the crap out of versatility, and 7th through 9th level spells are the primary culprits in that.  There might be some outliers though, especially if one goes digging through splats, so be wary of that just in case.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #74: March 24, 2013, 09:12:41 PM »
Any suggestions for a divine T3 class? And please don't say divine Bard, I'd like the arcane and divine class to be more different from each other than just by their spell lists and magic type.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #75: March 24, 2013, 09:44:19 PM »
What spell levels would you be alright with each class having?  If it's in the 5th or 6th range then using the bard's or duskblade's casting numbers (not necessarily spells of course) might work.  If you want 9's though you'll need to have a specialized list a la Dread Necro and Beguiler if you want it to stay T3.

And it might be better to split this off into a new thread now that it's not looking like it's about a curiosity of new spell access.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #76: March 24, 2013, 10:01:26 PM »
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #77: March 24, 2013, 11:13:39 PM »
+1
Shugenja is probably a tier 3 divine class. Full casting but off a very limited list and doesn't get any of the really problematic spells (planar binding/ally, genesis, gate, etc.)

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #78: March 24, 2013, 11:18:11 PM »
That's counter to my goals.
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline Weaveshear2012

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #79: May 12, 2013, 12:30:58 PM »
+1
Now , let's get back to psionics. In which tier should Wilder be ?