Author Topic: JaronK's Tier list for classes.  (Read 113258 times)

Offline Kethrian

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #80: May 12, 2013, 08:10:33 PM »
Wilder should be tier 2.  Has access to those big game-breaking powers, but very small selection.
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Offline malonkey1

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #81: May 14, 2013, 01:35:24 PM »
Wilder should be tier 2.  Has access to those big game-breaking powers, but very small selection.

Agreed. Psions get 36 powers while Wilders get 11, and get their high-levels at lower levels than Wilders, but they certainly outclass Psychic Warriors

Offline Demelain

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #82: May 16, 2013, 11:10:05 AM »
What classes aren't on this list, anyway? Wilders (being discussed presently), Wu Jen, Shugenja, and Spirit Shamans come to mind.

Offline Samb

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #83: May 18, 2013, 08:11:27 PM »
If all you wanted was manifesting and reality bending then wilder would rank higher than wilder would rank higher than psions just due to wild surge granting more ML and PP recharge trick.

Is there a comprehensive list of the rankings so far?

Offline veekie

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #84: May 19, 2013, 02:07:29 AM »
The ranking isn't based on that, it's more focused on how well a given character can solve game situations. The wilder can trivialize a smaller set of situations than the psion due to a smaller set of powers known, as both already have enough 'oomph' to win through in terms of power.
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Offline Dromuthra

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #85: March 11, 2014, 03:04:19 PM »
Wilder should be tier 2.  Has access to those big game-breaking powers, but very small selection.

Agreed. Psions get 36 powers while Wilders get 11, and get their high-levels at lower levels than Wilders, but they certainly outclass Psychic Warriors

Does this mean that Ardent should also be Tier 2?  It isn't listed either.

Offline eleazzaar

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #86: April 01, 2014, 08:13:22 PM »
It occurred to me that another way you could even out power levels, relatively painlessly is by placing a level limit on problematic classes and PRCs.

For instance if you wanted a game to center around tier 3, you could making it know that the player couldn't take more than 6 levels of a L1 classes and nor more than 10 levels of any tier 2 classes.  I'm just picking those numbers out of the air, but it is less drastic that forbidding whole classes, still allows dips, and is pretty easy on the DM and players.

Offline MeanFightingGuy

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #87: April 12, 2014, 07:31:28 AM »
+1
Hello there, aaaaand first actual post.

I have a couple of questions regarding the character tiers.
If these questions are out of place, just point me in the direction where they aren't.

1) Pretty simple: The monk is usually considered one of the weakest classes. However, when I first had a look at the PHB, I considered a high level monk seriously overpowered in comparison to other frontline fighters (this means higher tier classes and their vastly superior versatility are taken out of this particular equation). Am I just misinterpreting things and the common stance on this is "well, on a larger scale, they're equally crappy, so who cares?" or is the (pure) fighter better in the end because he can come up with some serious business-combination of feats?

2) Just by browsing through the board, I've noted that it oftentimes is stated "don't take more than x levels in fighter (or whatever); if you want to play a melee character, you should rather take levels in [additional class from another handbook] or [prestige class from another handbook] and you probably may get up to t4 or t3 if you're lucky" - isn't it just seriously flawed game design if I need to grab as many sourcebooks as I can just to be somewhat competitive, and even then can't hold a candle to another core class? And what is there to do if someone did for whatever reason *not* have access to basically each and every source book?

3) Which leads to 3. Okay, my first impression from the PHB was that, in comparison to AD&D, some classes got seriously needed upgrades. The warrior got from a weaker ranger (albeit with weapon spec, followers and no alignment restriction) to a master of arms and weapon styles, the rogue got from a backstabber with some shady abilities to the undisputed master of skills on top of that etc. Okay, I neglected the stealth buff to casters (namely that they basically removed their spell level cap by practically guaranteeing them that they will always have the necessary primary stat value needed at any given level), but nevertheless, casters apparently have been vastly superior to non-casters for decades. How come the designers never seemed to bother that much about it?

4) Just out of curiosity - assuming I wanted to avoid having a character with access to (high level-)magic that is nevertheless somewhat competitive, and thereby allow creating non-magical gestalt classes. At what tier would you place a full warrior/rogue gestalt (warrior HP + BAB, rogue skill points, core skills, abilities and additional stats for both classes, armor restriction in regards to the usage of skill and dexterity bonus nevertheless applies)?

Thanks in advance!

Offline sirpercival

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #88: April 12, 2014, 07:52:29 AM »
Hello there, aaaaand first actual post.

I have a couple of questions regarding the character tiers.
If these questions are out of place, just point me in the direction where they aren't.

1) Pretty simple: The monk is usually considered one of the weakest classes. However, when I first had a look at the PHB, I considered a high level monk seriously overpowered in comparison to other frontline fighters (this means higher tier classes and their vastly superior versatility are taken out of this particular equation). Am I just misinterpreting things and the common stance on this is "well, on a larger scale, they're equally crappy, so who cares?" or is the (pure) fighter better in the end because he can come up with some serious business-combination of feats?
What do you think makes the monk a better frontline fighter? MAD means their Strength is lower, which means less damage and attack; they have worse BAB than other frontline fighters; they have a smaller hit die than other frontline fighters, which along with MAD means fewer hit points; it's more expensive to equip them with appropriate gear thanks to the magic item pricing rules; and their class features are not synergistic.

Quote
2) Just by browsing through the board, I've noted that it oftentimes is stated "don't take more than x levels in fighter (or whatever); if you want to play a melee character, you should rather take levels in [additional class from another handbook] or [prestige class from another handbook] and you probably may get up to t4 or t3 if you're lucky" - isn't it just seriously flawed game design if I need to grab as many sourcebooks as I can just to be somewhat competitive, and even then can't hold a candle to another core class? And what is there to do if someone did for whatever reason *not* have access to basically each and every source book?
Yes, it's flawed game design. A lot of the homebrew fixes on this board try to deal with the imbalance between mundane classes like fighter and the spellcasting classes (or even classes that get real class features). If you don't have access to every source book, then look through the ones you do have and try to fin something that fits your character concept but has better performance than a fighter. Or, play in a group with lower-tier builds. Fighter is fine if he doesn't have to keep up with a druid in the same encounters.

Quote
3) Which leads to 3. Okay, my first impression from the PHB was that, in comparison to AD&D, some classes got seriously needed upgrades. The warrior got from a weaker ranger (albeit with weapon spec, followers and no alignment restriction) to a master of arms and weapon styles, the rogue got from a backstabber with some shady abilities to the undisputed master of skills on top of that etc. Okay, I neglected the stealth buff to casters (namely that they basically removed their spell level cap by practically guaranteeing them that they will always have the necessary primary stat value needed at any given level), but nevertheless, casters apparently have been vastly superior to non-casters for decades. How come the designers never seemed to bother that much about it?
Most of the designers have poor grasp of the numbers for their game. They paid no attention to optimization or appropriate use of resources.

I'm not answering 4 because I suck at tiering classes XD
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #89: April 12, 2014, 08:03:21 AM »
I'd just like to add that the monk and fighter classes share the same tier.  Neither is terribly more powerful than the other, both are pretty damn weak overall.  Also, monks suffer from a severe lack of synergistic abilities, such as high movement rate and flurry, where if you utilize one of those in a round you can't make use of the other.

And as for the fighter/rogue gestalt, I'd estimate it falling in the high tier 4 - mid tier 3 range, depending on build.
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Offline MeanFightingGuy

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #90: April 12, 2014, 08:56:10 AM »
What do you think makes the monk a better frontline fighter?
Just by looking on the baseline abilities. After all, the 7 attacks for 1d20 each somehow bugged me. But then again, I didn't take the fact into account that the warrior benefits a lot more from better gear back then.

Quote
Most of the designers have poor grasp of the numbers for their game. They paid no attention to optimization or appropriate use of resources.

They should seriously have tried to turn their game into an MMO and look how the different classes with their spells, feats and abilities would have panned out  :D

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #91: April 12, 2014, 11:04:00 AM »
What do you think makes the monk a better frontline fighter?
Just by looking on the baseline abilities. After all, the 7 attacks for 1d20 each somehow bugged me. But then again, I didn't take the fact into account that the warrior benefits a lot more from better gear back then.
Gear is what makes Mundanes useful at level 1, it just doesn't scale very well and in a couple of levels no one cares.

You were right in your initial assessment the Monk is better than the Fighter, but they are both fundamentally on the same Tier.
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Offline RMcD

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #92: May 09, 2014, 02:54:14 PM »
+1
Took me quite a while reading before I realised this was 3.5 and not Pathfinder, can anyone send me over to the Pathfinder list?

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #93: May 09, 2014, 03:25:26 PM »
Took me quite a while reading before I realised this was 3.5 and not Pathfinder, can anyone send me over to the Pathfinder list?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pathfinder+tier+list
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #94: January 01, 2015, 06:50:22 PM »
Just noticed no one ever answered about what tier the spirit shaman should be.  That's actually quite easy, it's tier 1.  Sure, spirit shaman is a spontaneous caster, but they get to choose their list of spells known fresh each day, much like a mem caster can memorize their spells each day, giving the class the access to the entire druid spell list each rest.
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Offline Keldar

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #95: January 01, 2015, 09:58:14 PM »
Agreed.  The Druid list may be the weakest 9 level list, but its still enough to get the druid to Tier 1, and the Spirit Shaman has it with the best casting arrangement in the game.

Offline linklord231

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #96: January 02, 2015, 01:33:24 AM »
Maybe, but I feel weird calling it Tier 1 when the Druid is so blatantly superior.  I think the Druid outclasses the Spirit Shaman to the same extent that a Wizard outclasses a Sorcerer or a Cleric outclasses a Favored Soul.  I'd put them at Tier 2. 
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Offline Keldar

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #97: January 03, 2015, 01:18:37 AM »
Class comparison is largely irrelevant for tiers.  Spirit Shamans get all sorts of campaign wrecking spells, and have all the versatility of any other tier 1 for spell access.  With the added advantage of spontaneous casting day to day.  Wildshape and Animal Companion are powerful as hell, but are largely irrelevant for what makes druid a solid tier 1.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #98: January 03, 2015, 03:03:01 AM »
Yup, it's more about the casting mechanics.  Spontaneous with a limited number of spells known is going to be T2 at best unless there are ways to cast spells that aren't taken as spells known.  In PF that's Sorcerer or Oracle with Paragon Surge for example.

The way Spirit Shamans cast is unique and has its pros and cons...  Like if you know you only need one specific spell cast once in the day then having that single spell taking up a "known" slot can be a drag.  Then there's the metamagic stuff.  But not being so restricted with spell slots can be quite nice.

Still, I would agree with it being T1.  It's the flexibility of changing spells day to day that tends to make T1 more powerful than T2.
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: JaronK's Tier list for classes.
« Reply #99: November 03, 2015, 11:29:55 PM »
As unwise as it is to poke Soro's pet peeves, I am putting in a nomination for Artificer as Tier 3 in a game that doesn't break WBL in any way. The reason is this wonderful little gem I found on GiTP.

It's like a DMM Persist Cleric lite! And for once...it's a trick only artificers can do.
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