Author Topic: The most powerful character. EVER. (with footnote links and paragraph breaks)  (Read 2227 times)

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Note: To any newbies reading this. This trick was not created by me, it was created by Khan the Destroyer.

Here is the example build I promised over on this thread: Incentive to Play a Kobold. The Manipulate Form ability is explained here, operating under the Fair Use clause.

 Manipulate Form

 
(click to show/hide)

 Behold Pun-Pun, the mighty kobold.

*** UPDATE ***

Ascension is now achievable (and has been for years... sorry) at level 1. All you need is the will and the know-how. Here's how:

1. Make sure that your alignment is not CE. LG would work best. You want to benefit the multiverse and there is no better way to do that than for it to be like puddy in your hands.

2. You need a Knowledge check of 25 to know that you can summon Pazazu like Beetlejuice. As a Psion with a Sage Psicrystal, an 18 Intelligence, the Skill Focus feat, four ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) and a masterwork item of relevance (say a book), you can take 10 to get 25. It's ok that you got bullied as a child for your narrow focus and strange fascination in all things relating to the planes. It will pay off in the end.

3. Summon Pazuzu by calling out his name three times. He'll appear and be like "Yo! What the hell?!?! What do you want Mor-tal? Power? I can give it!" You'll look all calm and not impressed and be like "I'd prefer a Lawful Evil aligned Candle of Invocation". "There is a price!" the demon lord will scream. "You must go closer to EV-ILL!!!" "Ok" you will say. "I shall be Neutral Good from now on." Pazuzu shouts "If you're going to stick with the one shift limit I would greatly prefer that you shifted to Lawful Neutral over Neutral Good!!!" You will look as if this is a deal breaker and you are ready to leave, then say "You're a real ballbuster but we have a deal."Now you have your candle.

4. Use the Candle to Gate in an Efreeti. He is under your control so you will command him to grant you three wishes. The first is to Plane Shift to the Astral Plane. The second is for another Candle of Invocation. The third is to stop George Lucas from moving forward on Indiana Jones 5.

5. Use the Candle to Gate in a Sarruhk. Command him to grant you Manipulate Form through the use of Manipulate Form.

Ascend.

*** What follows is the older method of ascension ***

Pun-Pun, Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3 /Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1(Feats: Endurance, Alertness (through viper familiar))/ Master of Many Forms 1/ Master of Many Forms 2(Feat: Assume Supernatural Ability)/Master of Many Forms 3.  The Fast Wildshape ability of the Divine Minion allows Pun-Pun to wildshape as an 11th level druid. The 3 levels in Master of Many forms stack with the Fast Wildshape ability of the Divine Minion to allow Pun-Pun to assume the form of a Monstrous Humanoid with up to 14 HD, like the Sarruhk (note the errata on Master of Many Forms here, in the Complete Adventurer link).   Pun-Pun wildshapes into a Sarruhk and uses Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species) to use the Manipulate Form ability. He uses Manipulate Form to bestow that very same ability (Manipulate Form) to his viper familiar.  Pun-Pun dismisses his Sarruhk form, and orders the familiar to grant him the Manipulate Form ability, using Manipulate Form of course.

 Since Pun-Pun is a pathetic Kobold, he qualifies as a Scaled One (though a human or other creature could simply Wild Shape into a form that qualifies as a Scaled One). Pun-Pun now has the strongest ability in the game.  * Pun-Pun was originally a Kobold Egoist 12. Thanks to Jedrious, Turok124, and Hobojimathome for the quicker build.  Ability Scores:  Pun-Pun grants himeslf the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size as a spell-like ability at-will. He casts it on his familiar through the Share Spells ability.

 This increases the viper to colossal size, granting the viper a +32 size bonus to strength. For the average tiny viper, that means his sterngth score went from 4 to 36. Using the Manipulate Form ability, the viper then increases Pun-Pun's strength score permanently, up to a maximum of 36 (the viper's own strength score). This is not a size bonus to strength. The viper is using the ability of Manipulate Form to increase and decrease a creature's ability score. No bonus is being given.

Pun-Pun's base strength score, with no bonuses of any sort, is now 36. Pun-Pun dismisses the spell effect on the familiar and it goes back down to tiny size. The familiar's strength score goes back to 4. Pun-Pun uses Giant Size on himself, growing to colossal size and gaining a +32 size bonus to strength. His strength score is now 68. Pun-Pun uses the Manipulate Form ability to directly increase his familiar's strength score up to 68.

Again, this isn't a size bonus that he is giving the familiar, he is actually increasing the base score to match his own. Pun-Pun dismisses his Giant Size effect, and he goes back to a small size with strength 36. The viper is still tiny size, with strength 68 now.  The viper repeats the process of growing to colossal size and increasing Pun-Pun's strength score. Pun-Pun does the same. This process is repeated until Pun-Pun decides he is satisfied with his current strength score.

  1. Cast Giant Size on familiar. Familiar becomes colossal and gains +32 size bonus to strength, giving the viper a total strength score of 36.

 2. The viper uses Manipulate Form to increase Pun-Pun's strength score up to a maximum equal to the viper's strength score. In this case, 36. (This is not a bonus of any kind, he is augmenting Pun-Pun's original strength score.)

 3. Pun-Pun dismisses the Giant Size effect on the viper. The viper goes back down to tiny size and 4 strength.

 4. Pun-Pun casts Giant Size on himself. His strength score is 36 from step 2, now he goes colossal and gains a +32 size bonus to strength. His strength is 68.

 5. Pun-Pun uses Manipulate Form to increase the strength of his tiny viper familiar. To match Pun-Pun's strength score, the viper's strength score is permanently increased from 4 to 68.

 6. Pun-Pun dismisses the Giant Size effect on himself. He goes back to small size and 36 strength.

 7. Pun-Pun casts Giant Size on his familiar. The viper becomes colossal and goes from 68 strength to 100 strength.

 8. The viper uses Manipulate Form to permanently increase Pun-Pun's strength to 100.

9. Repeat process.

  We'll just assume Pun-Pun decides to have a strength score of 20,010 (for a modifier of 10,000). Now, Pun-Pun gets his other scores to the same ridiculous height.  (Note that Pun-Pun's scores are assumed to be arbitrarily high. Yes, 20,010 is high, but it is even larger than that. A lot larger.)  To increase his other scores, Pun-Pun needs two abilities. The first one is the Bellflower Tattoo of the Tattooed Monk (Complete Warrior). This ability allows Pun-Pun to add his charisma modifier as an enhancement bonus to any one of his ability scores.

The second ability is the Void Release ability of the Void Disciple (Complete Divine). This will allow Pun-Pun to use his highest ability score modifier in place of a lower one.  Pun-Pun uses his Bellflower Tattoo to add his charisma score as an enhancement bonus to dexterity. But instead of adding his charisma bonus, he uses Void Release to add his strength bonus. His strength bonus is +10,000. So, Pun-Pun's dexterity score is now 10,000.

 He then uses Manipulate Form to increase his familiar's dexterity up to 10,000 as well (remember, he isn't giving his familiar a bonus to dexterity, he is literally changing his familiar's base dexterity score to match his own). Pun-Pun then dismisses the Bellflower effect, and his dexterity goes back down to normal. The viper then uses Manipulate Form to increase Pun-Pun's dexterity score up to 10,000. This time, it isn't an enhancement bonus, the familiar is using Manipulate Form to permanently change Pun-Pun's dexterity score to 10,000.  This process is repeated for each ability score. As Pun-Pun increases his strength score with the size-changing trick, he can continue to use this method to increase his other stats as well.

 For this reason, all of Pun-Pun's ability scores are assumed to be arbitrarily high.  Special Abilities:  According to the Monster Manual, all Special Attacks and Qualities are either Extraordinary, Spell-like, or Supernatural abilities. Manipulate Form can grant any of these. As such, Pun-Pun is assumed to have any ability that is beneficial to him or makes him more threatening as an opponent.

The Count here, just wanted to let anyone reading this know that on the minmaxboards there is a thread dedicated to listing all of Pun Pun's abilities. link

Here is a list of abilities that he has (the list is nowhere near exhaustive):  - All spells and powers as spell-like and psi-like abilities respectively, at-will. These are at an arbitrarily high caster/manifester level. This is because the caster/manifester level defaults to HD with spell-like and psi-like abilities, which Pun-Pun has a limitless amount of-

 1. Multiple actions in each round. This is due to the Quickness ability of the Choker (Monster Manual), as well as the Dual Actions ability of the Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) and the Schism psi-like ability (Expanded Psionics Handbook).

2. All beneficial feats. This is gained from the Chameleon prestige class (Races of Destiny). It has an extraordinary ability to gain a feat, and those feats can qualify for other feats. 

3. An arbitrary amount of Fast Healing by gaining the Epic feat Fast Healing (Epic Level Handbook) a large number of times.

 4. Immunity to weapon damage from the combined abilities of the Zodar (Fiend Folio) and Snowflake Ooze (Monster Manual 3). The abilities are Invulnerability and Split respectively.
 
 5.Natural Invisibility from the Invisible Stalker (Monster Manual).

6. Regeneration of at least 40 (the amount of regeneration the Tarrasque has). This means all damage taken by Pun-Pun (if any) is non-lethal, and then his Fast Healing makes it go away.

7. - All Energy Immunities.

 8. Immunity to Polymorph, Petrification, or any other form-altering attack, Energy Drain, Ability Damage/Drain, Mind-Affecting Effects, All Energy Damage, Disease, Poison, Stunning, Sleep, Paralysis, Death Effects, Disintegration, Imprisoning/Banishing effects, Divine Damage, Aging Effects.

 9. Immunity to all arcane spells of 6th level and lower and any spell that allows for Spell Resistance.

 The list goes on and on. Further, any ability with the Ex, Su, or Sp descriptor found in a base class or prestige class is fair game with Manipulate Form.  If you can think of any combination of abilities possible within the rules, Pun-Pun can do it.

  Divinity:  Pun-Pun has the Ice Assassin spell as a spell-like ability at-will. He uses it to copy an arbitrarily high number of gods. Pun-Pun then commands a god clone to make him a proxy. This makes Pun-Pun a rank 1 demigod. Pun-Pun then makes another creature (Lokiyn, the originator of the trick, used squirrels) a proxy. This lowers Pun-Pun to divine rank 0.

Pun-Pun then orders another ice assassin god to make him a proxy. At divine rank 1 again, Pun-Pun invests another squirrel with a divine rank. Pun-Pun repeats this process a NI number of times.  Then, he uses a standard action to recall each divine rank back from the squirrels. A NI number of squirrels with 1 divine rank invested equals a NI number of divine ranks recalled and gained by Pun-Pun. This gives Pun-Pun a NI divine rank. 

Since Salient Divine Abilities are based on divine rank, Pun-Pun has a NI number of salient divine abilities. (That is at least all of the ones in the book and includes the awesome Alter Reality.) 

Nut-Pun Rank 1 Demigod Squirrel

 
(click to show/hide)

  Buffing Time:  Originally, I created Pun-Pun just to be the strongest character known. At the time, the amount of time it took to buff wasn't a big deal. Now that Pun-Pun is the latest golden hind, it sort of matters how quickly he can achieve this power. (I don't really think it is important, since anyone that defeats a 5th level kobold pre-ascencion isn't really accomplishing much, minus the Omniscificer.)  So, here are a couple of methods to reduce the buffing time.

  Temporal Acceleration: Pun-Pun has a NI manifester level for his psi-like abilities. Psi-like abilities are automatically augmented to the highest manifester level when used. This means that Pun-Pun can manifest Temporal Accelertion for a NI number of apparent rounds. That is enough time to buff himself accordingly.  The only problem with this method is that Pun-Pun cannot interact with his familiar while under the effects of Temporal Acceleration. This means that Pun-Pun wouldn't be able to increase his strength score while using TA or become a proxy of an ice assassin god clone (though I think he might still be able to invest divine ranks and recall them, not sure though).

 Infinite Action Loop: This is a combo that involves Affinity Field, Synchronicity, and Font of Power. Basically, both Pun-Pun and his familiar grant themselves Font of Power (Metamind prestige class). They both have the Affinity Field and Synchronicity psi-like abilities.  The familiar manifests Synchronicity, giving himself a readied action. The familiar will use that readied action to manifest Synchronicity again. Meanwhile, the effect of Synchronicity (the readied action) is passed over to Pun-Pun through the Affinity Field. So, each time the familiar manifests Synchronicity, Pun-Pun gets a standard action. With Font of Power, the familiar can continue manifesting Synchronicity in the 1 round for free, endlessly.  * Thanks to DisposableHero_ for this combo, and to Tempest Stormwind for helping me understand it.

  Limitless HD:  There are several ways of going about this.  Energy Charge: I think this is the easiest way. The relevant rules can be found on page 211 of the Monster Manual 3. Basically, it functions as the opposite of Energy Drain, adding effective HD to a creature. Since the effect is supernatural, Pun-Pun can give himself a NI number of HD and make it permanent with Alter Reality.  * Thanks to RadicalTaoist for the Energy Charge discovery.  Awaken: The original method I used. Basically, Pun-Pun takes the form of an animal and just uses his Awaken spell-like ability a NI number of times to gain HD. Boring, yes. But it gets the job done.  Feed: This method involves Pun-Pun granting himself the Feed ability of the Barghest. Pun-Pun can then feed on humanoids to gain HD. The only hitch with this method is that it also involves using epic spells to summon humanoids with more HD than you.   NI HD is useful because it will determine his caster/manifester levels for spell-like and psi-like abilities, the amount of essentia Pun-Pun can invest, and all of the regular stuff associated with HD (BAB, skills, saves, etc.). 

Limitless Reach:  For limitless reach, one needs the Magic of Incarnum supplement. The Umbral Disciple prestige class is found on page 158. Its 10th level ability is called Kiss of the Shadows. This is a supernatural ability that you can invest essentia into. For each point of essentia you invest, your reach increases by 5 ft. The only limit is your essentia capacity. However, essentia capacity is based on your HD, and Pun-Pun's HD is limitless thanks to Energy Charge.  Normally, the ability lasts only on your turn. But since it is a supernatural ability, it can be made permanent with the Alter Reality salient divine ability. Note that if Pun-Pun does not have sufficient reach to threaten someone, he can just immediately dump more essentia into it. And with a truly infinite Spot check (thanks to the Omniscificer trick) he can see anyone at any distance and wether or not he can reach them.

 Reaching Through the Planes:  What good is limitless reach if you are limited to one plane? Enter the Planar Handbook. Here's the skinny as told by LoP: Planar Breaches

 
(click to show/hide)

 * Thanks to LordofProcrastination for this trick.  Limitless Speed:  Pun-Pun can increase his speed without limit. This is thanks to the Incarnum Speed supernatural ability of Duskling Barbarian substituion level in Magic of Incarnum (page 44). It gives you a +10' enhancement bonus to speed for each point of essentia invested in the ability. And since Pun-Pun has NI essentia and NI essentia capacity, he can boost his speed limitlessly. And thanks to his Free Move salient divine ability, Pun-Pun can move up to his NI speed as a free action once each round.

  Other Infinites or Really High Statistics:  There are a few things about Pun-Pun that are truly infinite and not simply 'limitless'. These are his saving throws, skill checks, and attack rolls. This is due to LoP's Inifnite Damage Loop, found here (1).Further, anything based off of these statistics will likewise be infinite. (For instance, the Thunderclap ability of the Stormsinger prestige class in Frostburn deals an amount of electrical damage equal to your perform check. Since your perform check is an infinity, your damage will likewise be infinite.)  Pun-Pun's ability scores are not so much infinite as they are without limit. Pun-Pun can increase his ability scores instantly and by a very big number at a time. Using the Bellflower/Void Release combo, he basically doubles any ability score permanently with one action. Any statistic based off an ability score is therefore assumed to be NI (nigh infinite) or limitless. These are statistics such as armor class, ability checks, initiative checks, saving throw DC's, skill points, weapon damage, hit points, etc.

  Manipulate Form and Extreme Cheese:  For the most part, when I refer to abilities possessed by Pun-Pun, I refer to abilities that already exist in a WoTC published sourcebook. The ability is either one seen in a base class or prestige class, or one seen in a monster stat block. However, the wording in the Manipulate Form text does not limit one to published abilities only. In fact, the descriptive text states that any ability can be granted, so long as it is Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-like in nature.  Allowing one the means to obtain most any ability found in published material is certainly broken. Allowing one to grant itself any ability it can conceive is ridiculousness beyond words. Basically, nothing is beyond the power of Pun-Pun, due to unrestrictive text in Manipulate Form.  Pun-Pun can grant himself an ability as innocent as:  Tough it Out  Benefit: If Pun-Pun would go unconscious due to any effect, he instead reamins conscious.  Or, he could grant himself an ability as powerful as:  I Win  Benefit: Pun-Pun cannot be harmed, directly or indirectly. Any act that would harm him automatically fails, at any place and at any given time. Further, Pun-Pun automatically succeeds at anything he attempts.  Given this level of power with Manipulate Form, it would be easy to say he can do anything and no one can stop him. Generally though, I (and most everyone else that has participated in this exercise) do not use this power of Manipulate Form. It is much more fun to stay within the abilities found in the rulebooks, and doing so allows others to challenge Pun-Pun with a sliver of a chance .

 LordofProcrastination devised an interesting way to justify out of the ordinary abilities without simply conjuring them from thin air. 'Out of the ordinary abilities' is referring to abilities that would normally be found as supernatural or spell-like but instead granted to Pun-Pun as extraordinary.  For example, Manipulte Form is normally a supernatural ability. However, Pun-Pun could easily stay within the parameters set by Manipulate Form and grant himself an extraordinary version of Manipulate Form. The benefit being that Pun-Pun can make himself completely immune to all magic and supernatural effects without hindering the use of his own Manipulate Form ability.  This is all too easy though, so LordofProcrastination used the Epic Spell rules in the Epic Level Handbook to create a clever workaround. Here is the low down:
 
(click to show/hide)


 FAQ 

Q: Why would anyone ever play Pun-Pun?
 A: I have no clue. I don't think it would be much fun honestly. Pun-Pun was never created with the intention of being played, and any game that allows a Pun-Pun character will quickly degenerate from there.  Pun-Pun is a character optimization build, more of a thought exercise than anything else. He demonstrates the limits that can be achieved within the rules as written and is not an actual PC Build for player use. 

Q: What sources are needed to pull this off?
A: A few.  Serpent Kingdoms (Sarruhk/Manipulate Form) Complete Series (Void Disciple, Tattooed Monk, Master of Many Forms) Divine Minion template  Savage Species (Assume Supernatural Ability feat) PHB, DMG, MM  The sources needed to simply get Manipulate Form are Serpent Kingdoms and the Core Rulebooks. After that, all books are used to reference abilities for Pun-Pun to obtain.

 Q: My DM won't allow the Divine Minion cheese, how else can I become Pun-Pun?
A: Dude, he's not meant to played! That said, there are several ways. The easiest of course being a caster and getting Polymorph. Here are some examples:  1. Polymorph/Metamorphosis: Basically, any caster/manifester with access to this spell or power can transform into a Sarruhk (casters at 14 HD, manifesters at 14th manifester level). The feats Assume Supernatural Ability is needed for casters to use Manipulate Form while transformed, and Metamorphic Transfer is needed by manifesters.  Level 14 for wizards and sorcerers. Level 12 for psions (Overchannel). Level 11 for changeling egoists (substitution level in Races of Eberron, Overchannel).  2. Illithid Savant: An Illithid character with 5 levels in the Illithid Savant prestige clas (Savage Species) can pull this off. However, it requires actually meeting and defeating a Sarruhk in-game, so it is largely dependent on the DM. Basically, you kill the Sarruhk and eat his brain. The 5th level ability of the Savant class allows you to acquire one special attack from a devoured brain. This will be Manipulate Form.  ECL 20.  3. Soul Eater: A 6th level Soul Eater can shapechange (as the spell) into any creature it energy drains to death. This also involves actually meeting and killing a Sarruhk, so it is largely DM dependent. Basically, you use your energy drain attack to kill the Sarruhk and then you can Shapechange into the Sarruhk for 24 hours with your Soul Radiance ability. The quickest build would be something like Fighter 2/Ranger 3/Soul Eater 6.  Level 11.  4. Omniscificer: As seen here in LoP's thread (2). Among other feats ( ), the Omniscificer should be able to obtain the Manipulate Form ability at level 4. This is because the Omniscificer will know how to obtain the ability, and convince anyone to help him get it with infinite skill checks. This is the quickest way to Pun-Pun power.  Level 4.  5. Items: Any character with ranks in Use Magic Device (or Use Psionic Device) can use a spell-trigger item to cast polymorph and change into a sarruhk. These characters would still need Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer to use the Manipulate Form ability. An item of Shapechange or Greater Metamorphosis would avoid the need for the feat, since supernatural abilities are assumed with Shapechange and GM.

 Q: Wouldn't the gods...?
A: -- Under Construction --

 Q: Size bonuses don't stack, so how do you get his ability scores so high?
 A: Please read the description of Manipulate Form again (it is at the top of the page). The ability allows you to increase another creature's ability score up to a maximum of your own corresponding ability score. So, if I have a strength score of 20, I can increase someone's else strength score all the way up to 20. I am not giving this creature a bonus to his score, I am actually changing his strength score (permanently) to 20, as if he had started the game with a base strength score of 20.  The limit to this ability is your own ability score. You cannot increase someone's strength beyond your own strength. This is why Pun-Pun and his familiar use size-increases. Each time they go colossal, they gain a huge strength bonus. This increases the capacity they have to increase someone else's strength score. 

Q: Does the divine minion template really let you qualify for Master of Many Forms?
 A: I believe it does. Divine Minion allows you to wild shape as an 11th level druid. I take that to mean that the ability functions as the druid class feature Wild Shape. There are several threads that delve further into the issue, though I don't have the links for them at the time.  Divine Minion is simply one of the quicker ways to obtain this level of power, not the only way. 

Q: I noticed that Psionics has a silent 'P' in it. Does this mean psionics is broken?
A: Uh... what? Your question isn't really relevant, or logical, but I've seen similar concerns pop up recently so I will answer it nonetheless. The simple answer is 'no'. Psionics is probably the most well balanced system in 3.5 D&D. I refer you here, here, and here (3) for more in-depth discussions on the matter.

I think that is everything. All thoughts, questions, critiques appreciated
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 05:34:22 PM by 123456789blaaa »
Please, call me Count :).

Thanks go to Shecky for the nickname and Serack for the avatar ^,..,^

Offline 123456789blaaa

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This  thread may be redundant (because the thread is already on the WOTC boards) but I couldn't find this classic thread anywere around here. For some reason it just feels "safer" to have it here instead of only on the WOTC boards. Plus there were no paragraph breaks.

Edit: Gonna try something. Since updating dead links without the creators permission feels kind of icky, I will be putting footnotes in purple instead.

1. http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=663.msg99303#msg99303. Bottom half of first post.

2. http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=663.msg99303#msg99303. Top of third post.

3. http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1304.msg13233#msg13233. First two links there, don't know what the third "here" is.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 06:01:14 PM by 123456789blaaa »
Please, call me Count :).

Thanks go to Shecky for the nickname and Serack for the avatar ^,..,^

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Here's the prequel/forerunner thread; 
lost to the multiple wotc board biffs.

Incentive To Play A Kobold - google cache
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5933.0

Khan still posts some at wotc 4e C.O.



EDIT --- the BG link will go down sometime.

Bayar did this

« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 01:41:16 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
Gregg Popovich:  "I don't deal in maybe.  I have enough trouble with reality."   :drunk

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Note:Thanks to awaken_D_M_golem I can post the original Incentive To Play A Kobold thread   :D :love

**
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Khan the Destroyer                                                               
08-09-05, 04:01 AM

There was a thread a little while ago about the potential abuse of the Sarrukh monsters from Serpent Kingdoms. El_Machinae used a rather conservative interpretation of the RAW. I'm just taking it as I see it.

The Sarrukh has a SU ability called Manipulate Form that allows it to add/take away abilities to any Scaly Kind creature (which includes anything from Kobolds to Lizard Folk to people with Yuan-ti grafts and the Snake Blooded feat). The Sarrukh can:

-Increase an ability score up to a number equal to its own same ability score
-Add tentacles/arms/legs/wings/snake torso/human torso
-Give the creature an extraordinary/supernatural/spell-like ability
-Change the size of the creature

Note, these effects are all permanent alterations. And they are non-magical.

So, my friend and I were thinking. The scenario has 2 Kobolds. At least one is a 12th level Egoist with Overchannel and Metamorphic Transfer. It uses Overchannel to Metamorph into a Sarrukh, and uses Metamorphic Transfer to use its Manipulate Form ability. It uses Manipulate Form to give the other Kobold Manipulate Form. The second Kobold gives the first kobold Manipulate Form (after it returns to its original form).

Ok, now both Kobolds permanently have Manipulate Form.

Kobold 1: Metamorphs into a Sea Drake, gaining a strength of 35. He uses Manipulate Form to grant Kobold 2 a 35 Strength. Kobold 1 returns to his original form.

Kobold 1: Uses Manipulate Form to turn Kobold 2 Colossal. Kobold 2 gains a +36 size increase to his Strength score, making it a total of 71.

Kobold 2: Uses Manipulate Form to increase Kobold 1's Strength score to 71. He then increases Kobold 1 to Colossal size. Kobold 1 gains a +36 size bonus to his Strength, making it a total of 107.

Both Kobolds return each other to their normal size, rinse, and repeat.

The same thing can be done with Dexterity. The Kobold turns into a Will-O-Wisp, gaining a Dexterity of 29. Then they take turns reducing their sizes, increasing their Dexterity by +6 each time they attain Fine size.

Note, the Metamorph isn't needed, but it gives a higher base to start from.

For Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, which aren't affected by Metamorphosis, the Kobolds can use Animal Affinity.

Kobold 1 uses Animal Affinity to increase his Intelligence from 16 to 20 (as an example). He then increases Kobold 2's Intelligence to 20 with Manipulate Form permanently. Kobold 1 dismisses the Animal Affinity, so his Intelligence is 16 again. Kobold 2 uses Manipulate Form to increase Kobold 1's Intelligence to 20 permanently. Kobold 1 uses Animal Affinity to increase his own Intelligence from 20 to 24. They repeat the process until they are satisfied with their Intelligence, and then move onto the other ability scores.

So, the Kobolds have whatever ability scores they pretty much wish for, power points permitting for the day :rolleyes: . Each day they can just keep the combo going for a while, and buff their stats like crazy.

Aside from that, they can grant each other any extraordinary/supernatural/spell-like ability. We can all see where that is going.

It just seems too easy to break though. Nothing in the text says there is any limit. What is stopping the kobolds from giving each other Wish as a spell-like ability? Sarrukh's cannot be affected by Manipulate Form, and I can see why they wouldn't give such powerful abilities to their servitors. But these kobolds could do it.

A wizard can do this at level 17 with Shapechange, or at a lower level with a scroll (as El_Machinae suggested in his thread). The only thing I find more tempting about the wizard build is the familiar. You can get a viper familiar and totally buff him like crazy. You can give your tiny serpent a human torso, arms, and legs, and call him 'Little Man'. And Little Man could have a 100 in each ability score, and all sorts of extraordinary or supernatural abilities, like DR, Regeneration, Swallow Whole, etc... The wizard could just sit back and let his omnipotent familiar handle the encounters.

'Get him Little Man!' the wizard yells as the 6 inch feral man leaps from his robes and eviscerates his target. My friend and I were laughing hysterically at the thought.

I used kobolds because they have no LA and are considered Scaly Kind. If your DM allows LA Buy-Off, then Poison Dusk Lizardfolk from MM3 are LA+1 and a lot less pathetic than kobolds. Also, any yuan-ti graft will apparently qualify you.

Gives me incentive to play a Kobold :). Unless of course I am missing something illegal in the 'builds' (or combo). Any thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
A Man In Black
08-09-05, 04:29 AM

The LA on Tainted One is low enough to work, too. If you want to use a subpar choice that isn't kobald, there's always the Reptilian template from SS.

And wow. Woooow. That's just ridiculous.

Tonight is just totally-awesome-broken-ridiculousness night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
runestar
08-09-05, 07:32 AM

Yes, I feel it would be doable. In fact, I felt that was the only reason why anyone would play a sarrukh, to buff your party's ability scores to the nines and do all sorts of funny ability manipulations. That was about the only thing worthy of the henious +8 LA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Vecna
08-09-05, 09:12 AM

You just discovered that Dragons are just mutated Kobolds... :clap :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Wizard Random
08-09-05, 09:19 AM

Wait what book, and what page. I have never heard of that book before. Is it made for Dnd or just a d20 book. That is insane, and i WANT it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Khan the Destroyer
08-09-05, 11:56 AM

The LA on Tainted One is low enough to work, too. If you want to use a subpar choice that isn't kobald, there's always the Reptilian template from SS.
I totally forgot about the Reptilian template, and Tainted One. The idea of a Tainted One running around more powerful than any other Yuan-ti or even their creators, the Sarrukhs, is just funny.

So, low ECL's that can get you this combo are:

Kobold (LA+0)
Lizardfolk (2 HD, LA+1)
Reptilian Template (LA+2)
Poisondusk Lizardfolk (LA+1)
Anyone with the Snake Blooded Regional feat from FR
Anyone with a Yuan-ti graft
You just discovered that Dragons are just mutated Kobolds...
Yeah, maybe every Sacled One on Toril is actually a descedant of Kobold stock :P . Sarrukhs were like 'We can make it bigger, faster, stronger. Well... we can improve just about anything, they're so pitiful.'
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Wait what book, and what page. I have never heard of that book before.
Sarrukhs are a monster in Serpent Kingdom, a supplement for Forgotten Realms detailing Yuan-ti and other serpent people. Page 80.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
DisposableHero_
08-09-05, 12:11 PM

........... :OMG! wow, good catch.... :thumb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
ChaosRabbit
08-09-05, 03:10 PM

Congrats.You just made a Kobold that is better than the tarrasque.
Actually you just made 2

Kobolds are broken

By the way, 1st time post from a loong time lurker. YAY!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Khan the Destroyer
08-09-05, 04:29 PM

Quote
Congrats.You just made a Kobold that is better than the tarrasque.
Thanks :). But actually, these Kobolds can be much much stronger than just the tarrasque. They can have any number imaginable for an ability score. And then they can give themselves all sorts of other abilities, like: immunity to weapons/magic, every spell as a spell-like ability at-will, any feat they want, etc..

Kobolds are broken

Yeah, they were just hiding it under that -4 strength and small size :) .
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By the way, 1st time post from a loong time lurker. YAY!
Welcome :D.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Kadasbrass
08-09-05, 10:42 PM

You just discovered that Dragons are just mutated Kobolds...  :clap:

 :lmao :lmao :lmao
Good Job Khan the Destoryer, I'm posting a link to this thread in the Kobold foundation just because of the laughs I got out of it :)

May of got an idea for an adventure too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
EvilVegan
08-09-05, 11:28 PM

Size bonuses don't stack.

Wouldn't those Str mods just be size mods?

I'd have to read the ability, but still, good job.

Just wanted to be the first parade rainer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Khan the Destroyer
08-10-05, 02:14 AM

Size bonuses don't stack.
Very true.
Wouldn't those Str mods just be size mods?
No. The Manipulate Form ability is not granting a size bonus to strength, it is merely increasing the strength of the one kobold to match the strength of the second kobold. So...

Kobold 1 enlarges Kobold 2 to colossal size. Kobold 2 gains a +36 size bonus to Strength. So, if his starting strength was 10 (for example), Kobold 2 now has a 46 strength. Kobold 2 then uses Manipulate Form to increase Kobold 1's strength to match his own. So Kobold 1's strength rises from 10 to 46 as well, even though he is not changing size. Kobold 2 isn't granting Kobold 1 a size bonus to strength, he is merely changing his strength score permanently up to a number equal to his own strength.

I hope I explained it well enough, I'm sure I would do better in person ;) .

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Just wanted to be the first parade rainer.
Strange desire... but no worries. No rain here, just blue skies, and uber kobolds.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
A Man In Black
08-10-05, 08:26 AM

You know, I just remembered...a human with the Snake Blood feat is considered a Scaled One.

You don't even really have to be a kobald or an LA race.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Slim-the-sneaky
08-10-05, 01:47 PM

yeah but another super uber human is not really as cool as mega-kobolds.
rock on man
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
A Man In Black
08-10-05, 11:03 PM

You could also use the new Extaminaar race from Champions of Ruin. +0 LA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
A Man In Black
08-11-05, 07:19 PM

I did a little research, because I was bored. Want to take advantage of this abuse?

You can be...
Kobold (LA +0)
Lizardfolk (2 HD, LA +1)
Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (LA +1)
Extaminaar (LA +0, from Champions of Ruin)
Some of the lesser Nagas from OA (LA varies)
Reptilian Template (LA +2)
Chameleon Creature (LA +2)
A human with the Snake Blooded feat from PGtF
Anyone with a Yuan-ti graft
Any scaly non-draconic familiar, like a viper or a horned lizard (Sand)

I love how every single abuse of this trick requires that you make a seriously sub-par choice to get access.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Khan the Destroyer
08-11-05, 09:19 PM

Quote
I did a little research, because I was bored. Want to take advantage of this abuse?

You can be...
Kobold (LA +0)
Lizardfolk (2 HD, LA +1)
Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (LA +1)
Extaminaar (LA +0, from Champions of Ruin)
Some of the lesser Nagas from OA (LA varies)
Reptilian Template (LA +2)
Chameleon Creature (LA +2)
A human with the Snake Blooded feat from PGtF
Anyone with a Yuan-ti graft
Any scaly non-draconic familiar, like a viper or a horned lizard (Sand)
I had a smaller list somewhere up above. But this one is longer :) . Good job.

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I love how every single abuse of this trick requires that you make a seriously sub-par choice to get access.
Pretty much :) . You just sit by and play the waiting game. Let the other players have their temporary glory, and look at you with pity as you dwell in your sub-parness. Then, at level 12... break out of your cocoon of low-stats and cumbersome level adjustments and become the infinite powerhouse butterfly you were destined to be.

Or... something like that.

I'm going to come up with a sample build just to see what it's like.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
A Man In Black
08-11-05, 09:57 PM

Quote
I'm going to come up with a sample build just to see what it's like.
I think the most optimal choice might be the Extaminaar. You're making a wizard or psion, after all, and Extaminaar are -2 str and +2 con, on top of some other class features.

Of course, kobald is much more stylish.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Khan the Destroyer
08-11-05, 10:17 PM

I think the most optimal choice might be the Extaminaar. You're making a wizard or psion, after all, and Extaminaar are -2 str and +2 con, on top of some other class features.
Sounds pretty good. Unfortunately, I don't have Champions of Ruin, so I don't know the race's other specs. Maybe I can sneak a peak at the store tomorrow.
Of course, kobald is much more stylish.
Yeah, I was thinking of two different examples. One Human with the snake-blooded feat, and one Kobold.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Dragon3
08-13-05, 11:23 AM

Your DM may well be within his own rights to slap LA on you for your extra abilities. After all LA reflect extra abilities and the like. You can have it but you'll need harder challenges to gain exp :). Any idea of how much you can slap on before triggering LA? Hmm seem you can avoid getting slapped with LA by buffing up your familar instead. What's the wording of this ability? Once you gain it, can you modify anyone at all? Or you cast polymorph on them and then modify away? Example I like warforged. Can 2 warforged wizard polymorphed do it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Nifft
08-13-05, 12:08 PM

Your DM may well be within his own rights to slap LA on you for your extra abilities.

Your DM would be well within his own rights to pimp-slap you into the next Plane, but that's irrelevant... it's a great (ab)use of kobolds!

-- N
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Dragon3
08-13-05, 01:26 PM

Here we go. Page 11 on level adjustment factors. :P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Dragon3
08-13-05, 01:29 PM

You know, best strategy would be get to MasTrans 10 level ability and abuse the hell out of it. You can get that ability as as secondary ability and apply it to your favored form. You don't have to be an Sarrukh. Just make sure you're reptilian or your favored form is. This eliminate the need for 2 characters. I was wrong, infinite variety state that special ability must be EX. damm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Dragon3
08-13-05, 01:49 PM

First post gave me this idea. Just have your omnipotent familar enhance you up. Still working on how to extend this to warforged wizard. Hmmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Khan the Destroyer
08-13-05, 03:43 PM

Quote
Here we go. Page 11 on level adjustment factors. :P

The point isn't that you can actually play this guy at level 12 or 17. It's just that by the rules you can make the most powerful character ever. LA or not, he's uber beyond belief.Just have your omnipotent familar enhance you up.Whups, I guess I didn't really clarify that. Yes, that is how the wizard pulls it off. The two kobold psions use each other, and the wizard uses his familiar.Still working on how to extend this to warforged wizard.I'm not sure. I'm working on a couple of example builds right now. If Warforged can use grafts, than a simple Yuan-ti graft can do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Dragon3
08-13-05, 11:36 PM

What about templates? As written it doesnt add any. I was just thinking of a divine rank. Is that beyound the reach of the ability? Certainly there's dragon gods and reptilian gods all over the places but I don't think you can add their divine ranks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Prak, the Mad
08-14-05, 05:00 PM

It just seems too easy to break though. Nothing in the text says there is any limit. What is stopping the kobolds from giving each other Wish as a spell-like ability? Sarrukh's cannot be affected by Manipulate Form, and I can see why they wouldn't give such powerful abilities to their servitors. But these kobolds could do it.
a very strict interpretation of the rule that Sarrukhs can't be affected would be that creatures with manipulate form can't be affected. but that's up to the DM, as a DM, I would require a Will save vrs. loss of Sanity(either using Sanity points, or the rules for half-golem limbs) as a limitation of the ability.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Khan the Destroyer
08-14-05, 05:32 PM

Quote
a very strict interpretation of the rule that Sarrukhs can't be affected would be that creatures with manipulate form can't be affected. but that's up to the DM, as a DM, I would require a Will save vrs. loss of Sanity(either using Sanity points, or the rules for half-golem limbs) as a limitation of the ability.
Actually, a very strict interpretation would mean that only Sarruhks cannot be affected, as that is exactly what the ability says.

I'm almost done with the sample build, there are a lot of numbers involved  ;).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
evilgenius
08-14-05, 09:12 PM

I'm in a non-psionic campaign;

What's the earliest that this can be done as a non-psion? I'm asuming Arcane caster here...

Would it be 4th level polymorph or 9th level shapechange?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Khan the Destroyer
08-14-05, 09:42 PM

Quote
I'm in a non-psionic campaign;

What's the earliest that this can be done as a non-psion? I'm asuming Arcane caster here...

Would it be 4th level polymorph or 9th level shapechange?
It would have to be 9th level Shapechange, because Polymorph doesn't give you supernatural abilities. I think El_Machinae used a scroll of polymorph in his example, so if you can afford one, do it as early as your DM will allow you to buy one (I think he said 11th level).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Shwepie
08-15-05, 02:53 AM

Quote
Then, at level 12... break out of your cocoon of low-stats and cumbersome level adjustments and become the infinite powerhouse butterfly you were destined to be.

O.o

Is that a Kung Fu Hustle referance?

Also, does anyone know if the ability transfer only the base score, or the current score?

Cause if it transfers the current, the two Kobolds could get magic equipment to wear, maybe inharent bonuses or better yet both! Then slap each other across the face every round, getting a increase of up to 11 in one ability every 6 seconds. Without having to transform into anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Slim-the-sneaky
08-16-05, 03:12 AM
Quote
O.o

Also, does anyone know if the ability transfer only the base score, or the current score?

it's current so yes it is awesome Khan is going to re-post this so if you can wait for that then prepare to catch your jaw (save it from going through the floor)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Khan the Destroyer
08-28-05, 02:27 AM

Here is the link to the example build.... right.... here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801).

And jameswilliamogle made a good point. Essentially, any race could pull this off just by manifesting Metamorphosis enough times. The human becomes a Sarruhk and his psicrystal becomes a snake. The human gives his psicrystal Manipulate Form. He dismisses the power. He manifests Metamorphosis again, but this time becomes a troglodyte. His psicrystal grants him the Manipulate Form ability. Presto.

Wow, it was so simple... I can't believe I missed it. Good catch again jameswilliamogle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Lionhearted
10-21-05, 03:46 PM

came to think of a con loooong ago. when a girl advised me to get a shocker lizard familiar and all girls admiriation (sp). use this build on a shocker lizard?  :evillaugh (i know the shocker lizard makes the char weaker... but with this build? who cares?)
" haha did they sent a lizard to defeat us?
:schemes:  "dragon not lizard"
 :??? "huh?"
CHADABRADAKAAAZZZZZ  :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh

btw this is why i supect all kobolds to be ninjas ,,, the enemy you dont expect is the most dangerous (whiped an entire party with 2 kobold ninjas of the parties lvl once)

ps. i <3 :evillaugh :
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Elvis Gone Warlock
10-24-05, 10:43 AM

I thought the sarrukh could only do extraordinary abilities...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
tsuyoshikentsu
10-24-05, 10:00 PM

(whiped an entire party with 2 kobold ninjas of the parties lvl once)

Did the same thing. :D Kobold ninjas rock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Lionhearted
10-25-05, 09:46 AM

Quote
Did the same thing. :D Kobold ninjas rock.

I KNOW !  :D
after that all kobolds where KoS... even if it was a new party. guess if they hated me when i put in half ogre psions  :D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Quenditar
12-01-05, 05:41 PM

:bump: As the very beginning of Pun-Pun, this thread should go down in history.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Kurama Youko
02-14-06, 11:30 PM

Khan you have inspired me and a Friend to use the same trick but we wont go astronomical with it.

I myself plan on using the Rilkans from Magic Incarnum as the base race. No LA and very good looking race. (That may sound shallow, but hey.. technically though through use of MF I could be a kobold and just augment myself asking my companion to make the desired alterations to myself.)

Anyway, we are drooling at the mouth, not at the idea of giving our selves crazy things like 1000 str, which we wont be doing anyway, but the idea that we can augment our selves permenately and basically mold ourselves into the perfect species and thus creating a new species altogether since our off spring will inherent any changes we make on our selves so long as we breed with members of our original kind. NEW RACES!!!!

So basically take a Rilkan add claws like that of a half dragon of the same size, wings of a dragon of the same size (with equal flight speed and manuverability), Fangs of a Viper of the same size (minus any changes to the face except for the fangs and the ability to hide them in our mouths.) plus the poison which will be based on half our HD+Con+10. The Senses of a Dragon (Darkvision, Lowlight-Vision, 60ft Blindsense), Regeneration of a Troll, and Natural Armor of 4, and SR of 11+HD from Drow.

We are pretty much gonna mimic the ability scores of the Sarrukh as well. All this for a 20th lv Campaign that is coming up. Man, we are gonna pimp, or get kicked out.. either way its gonna be fun. My friend is gonna be the one originally with the idea and give me the Manipulate Form ability as well as his familiar, and thus it all starts from there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
MagicWar1
07-08-06, 07:44 PM

Here is the link to the example build.... right.... here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801).

Quote
Quote
And jameswilliamogle made a good point. Essentially, any race could pull this off just by manifesting Metamorphosis enough times. The human becomes a Sarruhk and his psicrystal becomes a snake. The human gives his psicrystal Manipulate Form. He dismisses the power. He manifests Metamorphosis again, but this time becomes a troglodyte. His psicrystal grants him the Manipulate Form ability. Presto.
Wow, it was so simple... I can't believe I missed it. Good catch again jameswilliamogle.

He wouldn't even have to become a Troglodyte. Since as a few people have pointed out in other threads, it doesn't actually say that the abilities given to the familiar have to be ones exactly like abilities that already exist, you could give it a twisted version of Manipulate Form. I am personally partial to calling it Universal Manipulation. Why waste minutes going back and forth, when instead you could simply give the little beastie who is your buddy the ability to affect anything in existence simply by looking at it, giving it any ability score it wants, whether above or below their own scores. No save. Throw in DR 500/-, and you are now immortal, heck just throw in an ability called Immortal. Woo! fun.

Edit: Aw dagnabbit. I need to start paying attention to when the last post was...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Chosen of the Dark Sun
07-08-06, 09:31 PM

Wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this just Diet Pun-Pun?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Tempest Stormwind
07-08-06, 10:25 PM

Quote
Wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this just Diet Pun-Pun?
If you'd check the Pun-Pun thread, you'd have seen that this was the thread that spawned him. And then we discovered exactly what such an ability meant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Mud
07-08-06, 11:17 PM

Quote
I thought the sarrukh could only do extraordinary abilities...

Well, the Serpent Kingdoms excerpt here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040709a&page=3) has a stat block for Pil'it'ith, an example sarrukh, and his Manipulate Form ability does say it only grants extraordinary abilities. Of course, that's just his version of the ability, and since I don't have the book I don't know if a normal sarrukh's Manipulate Form grants supernatural and spell-like abilities in addition to extraordinary ones. But I trust the CO boards when they say it does grant them, and even if it doesn't, there's still plenty of things to abuse with the ability.  :)

(And I'm also pretty sure this has been answered on the Pun-Pun thread, but I don't want to wade through 30 pages to find it. :P )
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Tempest Stormwind
07-08-06, 11:46 PM

It's quoted in its entirety on the very first post of the Pun-Pun topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
CriminalTruth
11-16-06, 01:35 AM

I've been debating.. what would you guys do if someone tried to pull this off in ur game? lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Tleilaxu_Ghola
11-16-06, 01:41 AM

Slap him/her upside the head with my dice bag.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 06:01:58 PM by 123456789blaaa »
Please, call me Count :).

Thanks go to Shecky for the nickname and Serack for the avatar ^,..,^

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Note:Incentive to play a kobold thread continued.

Tempest Stormwind
11-16-06, 01:43 AM

Quote
I've been debating.. what would you guys do if someone tried to pull this off in ur game? lol

See the LordofProcrastination quote my sig.

The typical form this would take would involve an improvised blackjack (such as a dice bag), a crate, four beefy men from a moving company, and a container ship bound for Shanghai. A sack-beating may or may not preceed this.

Do note that just because we toy around with powers like this here doesn't mean we pull it off in game, or condone it being pulled off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Dragon3
11-16-06, 08:56 AM

It does behoove yourself to learn the defenses against such attempts. Suppose someone decide to pull this off sneaky and underhanded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Taeldrin Laesrash
11-16-06, 09:34 AM

Quote
It does behoove yourself to learn the defenses against such attempts. Suppose someone decide to pull this off sneaky and underhanded.
There's only really one way to do this, so if you know the trick, you can stop it (Knowledge is Power!). Once they say 'I turn into a Sarrukh', it's time to knock them silly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Dragon3
11-16-06, 09:39 AM

Or I turn into a being with the ability to manipulate form. Heh the omnisficier doesn't even need to be a Sarrukh. How you fight someone with infinite knowledge?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
The_Mad_Linguist
11-16-06, 10:06 AM

Quote
Or I turn into a being with the ability to manipulate form. Heh the omnisficier doesn't even need to be a Sarrukh. How you fight someone with infinite knowledge?

Ascend before they get infinite knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 06:02:10 PM by 123456789blaaa »
Please, call me Count :).

Thanks go to Shecky for the nickname and Serack for the avatar ^,..,^