Author Topic: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?  (Read 9204 times)

Offline Mushroom

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #20: September 09, 2012, 04:26:04 PM »
i would say anything using a vancian based casting system is going to lose to point spend system eventually. personally, i like psions better for that very reason. the only almost-exception to that would be a beholder mage.
Sorcerer can use the magic point variant from unearthed arcana(of course if the dm allows it)....
But I do think that Psion has an edge mainly due to his better versality since a psion could change his known powers much more easily than a sorcerer could change his known spells............
Limited wish -> Psychic Reformation
Mental Pinnacle-> Psychic Reformation

I think that spell alone spells advantage for the sorcerer

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #21: September 09, 2012, 07:19:58 PM »
+1
Sorcerer can use the magic point variant from unearthed arcana(of course if the dm allows it)....
Eeww. Never use that system.

As I have pointed out before, the system is a rip off.

A. Simple and basic math.
a 20th level Sorcerer with 34 Charisma has a full set of 6 spell slots per day, his bonus for his ability score is 3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1. Following spell slot cost under the point system - ie 9th = 17 points, 5th = 9 points and so on - and excluding the factor of Cantrips the following formula can readily be tossed into google: (1*9)+(3*9)+(5*9)+(7*9)+(9*8)+(11*8)+(13*8)+(15*8)+(17*7)= which comes back to 647 points.

Under the Spell Points system, a 20th level Sorcerer 249 points plus 161 bonus points for 34 Charisma or 410 points. Meaning you have around a -37% penalty to your daily spellcasting just for using this system. Even a Psion gets more points than the Spell Point Sorcerer, they get 343 & 120 for 463 power points. They didn't calculate any numbers, they pulled them out of their rear.

B. Your damage spells now require Spell Point Augmentation, your CC & Save-Or-Die effects remain the same.
Because everyone knows Evocation is the most powerful school and readily needs to be nerfed ASAP right?

Not to be judgmental of the author, but the guy was f*cking retarded.
Next time you want to state your unfounded opinions as fact, choose a more proper venue.

Offline snakeman830

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #22: September 10, 2012, 06:20:49 AM »
Limited wish -> Psychic Reformation
Yes he could use it to take the extra spell feat and change it whenever he needs a new spell,nice find....
Or he could just re-write all of his spells learned at a certain class level.
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Online Rebel7284

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #23: September 10, 2012, 06:34:52 AM »
Limited Wish is a 7th level spell.  Psychic Reformation is a 4th level power.  The pattern remains that Psions are more flexible, while Sorcerers are more powerful. :)

Offline Halinn

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #24: September 10, 2012, 09:27:39 AM »
Limited Wish is a 7th level spell.  Psychic Reformation is a 4th level power.  The pattern remains that Psions are more flexible, while Sorcerers are more powerful. :)
Since the high tiers are decided on how many different ways one can break the game, how many Psion options can do that, compared to what a Sorcerer could be running with?

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #25: September 10, 2012, 09:47:02 AM »
Sorcerer can use the magic point variant from unearthed arcana(of course if the dm allows it)....
Eeww. Never use that system.

As I have pointed out before, the system is a rip off.

A. Simple and basic math.
a 20th level Sorcerer with 34 Charisma has a full set of 6 spell slots per day, his bonus for his ability score is 3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1. Following spell slot cost under the point system - ie 9th = 17 points, 5th = 9 points and so on - and excluding the factor of Cantrips the following formula can readily be tossed into google: (1*9)+(3*9)+(5*9)+(7*9)+(9*8)+(11*8)+(13*8)+(15*8)+(17*7)= which comes back to 647 points.

Under the Spell Points system, a 20th level Sorcerer 249 points plus 161 bonus points for 34 Charisma or 410 points. Meaning you have around a -37% penalty to your daily spellcasting just for using this system. Even a Psion gets more points than the Spell Point Sorcerer, they get 343 & 120 for 463 power points. They didn't calculate any numbers, they pulled them out of their rear.

B. Your damage spells now require Spell Point Augmentation, your CC & Save-Or-Die effects remain the same.
Because everyone knows Evocation is the most powerful school and readily needs to be nerfed ASAP right?

Not to be judgmental of the author, but the guy was f*cking retarded.
And yet, this is pretty much exactly how the psionic mechanics work. So if this system is universally regarded as being inferior to "normal" spellcasting, then that judgement should hold true for psions.

As already mentioned, the only real advantage is flexibility, as you can burn through all of your power/spell points on your highest level powers and "nova" a bit better than someone using spell slots. Or you can use them all to fuel low level powers/spells, if you need to that for some reason (I prepared a LOT of Explosive Runes today).
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #26: September 10, 2012, 12:03:39 PM »
And yet, this is pretty much exactly how the psionic mechanics work. So if this system is universally regarded as being inferior to "normal" spellcasting, then that judgement should hold true for psions.
No.

I was talking about the Spell Point System, not psionics. Adapting into it nerfs the crap out of an already worthless school and cuts your spells per day, one only frigging sale points of a sorcerer, down so clearly the author of it had no clue what he was doing.

As a bunch mark of point comparison I named the Psion whom gets 53 more points in a system where 'spells' scale them selves and take on several elemental types making your known count more effective and contains in house break me for infinite known. However, if you look at things in reverse, IE the Spell Point Sorcerer is the benchmark for converting the Psion to Vancian casting, the Psion gets almost 10/10/10/10/9/9/9/9/8 for daily Spell Slots at 34 Intelligence. And not only would they have more Spells Per Day, they learn new 'spell' levels an entire level ahead of the Sorcerer as they are based off the Wizard class, including bonus Feats.

The Spell Point system doesn't prove Psions are inferior, it proves they are superior.
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Offline Azrael

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #27: September 10, 2012, 12:14:35 PM »
It kind of depends on the level, book restrictions, and the type of play you want to consider.

If we are talking about level then typically psions beat out sorcerers at low-mid level and sorcerers come on top at higher levels due to flexibility and options.

Psions certainly have more low-mid level action economy manipulation with synchronicity and can essentially take more actions than a sorcerer can in a round. If most of those actions are utilized defensively in order to negate/counter the sorcerers or others actions then they cannot really do anything. As long as the psion has power points remaining they will win.

If we assume the question is whether or not a psion can beat a sorcerer at 13th level a psion is capable of doing my Mage Killer Clone clone technique which involves using temporal acceleration (augmented with power-link shards to get extra actions because I assume they are allowed; and one of the other reasons psions trump sorcerers at low levels), making a clone with fission, walking up to the enemy (with your real body), casting a wall of ectoplasm that surrounds the enemy and myself exactly 10 feet in diameter and manifesting null-psionics field. The temporal acceleration then ends and the clone can proceed to fly above the wall and pelt the enemy sorcerer with crystal shards until they are dead. Essentially the enemy sorcerer once trapped can do nothing and it is assumed they cannot make a jump check without magical assistance that would allow them to jump over a 20ft high wall. To add icing to the cake the psion can do this even flat footed because of a nifty little 3rd level power every psion should have called sense danger (Magic of Eberron).

At high level it kind of comes down to who has the first move because either the psion or the mage can lock each other down in the first round. It just depends on who gets their time-stop/temporal acceleration off first. However, I would say that since Craft Contingent Spell exists the sorcerer has a slight advantage. Both have foresight/sense danger and can act in round 0, and both have their regular contingencies, but since the sorcerer can effectively have 20 extra contingencies I would vote that in a serious fight to the death the well-prepared sorcerer would come out on top.

Not to mention access to CoP.

If we are not talking first round cheese then I would still say the sorcerer has the advantage due to invincibility combos like (shapechange - ogre mage, veil of undeath, energy immunity (acid, fire)) that the sorcerer can have up all day with rods of extend and the psion is incapable of pulling off without using experience (since metamorphosis takes exp). Of course there is the exception of a metamind/temp-reit build that is capable of doing this; but that is the only build and you sacrifice many manifester levels in order to do it.


This is all assuming you are talking about who would come out on top in a 1v1 battle which I don't think is really the subject. Otherwise you really just have to consider the fact that low-mid level the psion has more flexability, more action economy manipulation, more options with less reliance on magic items, and the ability to recharge their power points effectively giving them unlimited resources (and the ability to keep their 10/min level buffs up constantly). At high level, once the sorcerer gains access to shapechange they effectively have a whole bunch of spells and abilities for free, and near complete invincibility; so I think it has a small edge over the psion despite the fact that it is still technically a resource-based class.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #28: September 10, 2012, 02:31:49 PM »
If we assume the question is whether or not a psion can beat a sorcerer at 13th level a psion is capable of doing my Mage Killer Clone clone technique which involves using temporal acceleration (augmented with power-link shards to get extra actions because I assume they are allowed; and one of the other reasons psions trump sorcerers at low levels), making a clone with fission, walking up to the enemy (with your real body), casting a wall of ectoplasm that surrounds the enemy and myself exactly 10 feet in diameter and manifesting null-psionics field. ...
I stopped reading there and laughed.

Edit - Oh btw hi and welcome to the forums. You really are new.
Tip; there are several problems with that combo that essentially amount to; who wouldn't kill you if you tried that.
And you're Clone won't be making that list...
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 02:35:25 PM by SorO_Lost »
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Offline Azrael

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #29: September 10, 2012, 10:27:15 PM »
If we assume the question is whether or not a psion can beat a sorcerer at 13th level a psion is capable of doing my Mage Killer Clone clone technique which involves using temporal acceleration (augmented with power-link shards to get extra actions because I assume they are allowed; and one of the other reasons psions trump sorcerers at low levels), making a clone with fission, walking up to the enemy (with your real body), casting a wall of ectoplasm that surrounds the enemy and myself exactly 10 feet in diameter and manifesting null-psionics field. ...
I stopped reading there and laughed.

Edit - Oh btw hi and welcome to the forums. You really are new.
Tip; there are several problems with that combo that essentially amount to; who wouldn't kill you if you tried that.
And you're Clone won't be making that list...

Wow...what an ass hole you are being Soro...it seems your rep has gone to your head. You weren't this way before the board changed, or maybe I just didn't know you that well...either way, I am not new, I just haven't posted much since the board change because I have been working on real-life things...sorry some of us have a life.

You clearly don't understand the way it works or you wouldn't have laughed. Even if an AMF cancels the clone (and I'm not sure it does...I realize its personal range but if the clone itself is outside the AMF it may not affect it since having a body part outside an AMF (as we have seen with LoP's build)...but perhaps you are correct, it is personal range and maybe it needs a tiny fix...that must be what you're laughing about right?) you could just do the hard way and walk up to the enemy first, cast fission, then move away, make the wall, and as soon as the temporal acceleration ends have your clone immediately cast an AMF around itself since it should get to act immediately after it ends. You can even prepare against a celerity by using synchronicity before the acceleration ends to interrupt his spell with something damaging like a fully power-link sharded crystal shard...pretty difficult concentration check to make.

I just lost a lot of respect for you, instead of making an easy and obvious correction to the combination that I myself was aware of you just berated it and insulted me. I wish we could vote you down on respect for this because you really deserve it.

Offline snakeman830

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #30: September 11, 2012, 06:22:03 AM »
Actually, I think the issue is with the fact that you have your real body trapped defenselessly in your own wall with someone who is most likely better at melee combat than you.  I read your post and had a "wtf" thing myself.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #31: September 11, 2012, 06:33:21 AM »
Actually, I think the issue is with the fact that you have your real body trapped defenselessly in your own wall with someone who is most likely better at melee combat than you.  I read your post and had a "wtf" thing myself.
Well psions also have a couple of different ways of permanently swapping bodies with someone (like say... the tarrasque). So they might not be outclassed while inside an AMF. But yeah, it isn't a tactic you want to use without being really sure it will work out for you. :P Mages can also do this better thanks to the Archmage's ability to shape AMFs, the Extraordinary Concentration feat, and probably 1 or 2 more things that lets them cast/keep their buffs in an AMF.
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Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #32: September 11, 2012, 06:50:13 AM »
If we're assuming the persistant power feat (which exists in several places, the XPH being the most legal) then the psion gains some bonus due to being able to, using only the psion chassis, make a time stop last for 24 hours.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #33: September 11, 2012, 07:09:46 AM »
If we're assuming the persistant power feat (which exists in several places, the XPH being the most legal) then the psion gains some bonus due to being able to, using only the psion chassis, make a time stop last for 24 hours.
Persistent Power isn't in the XPH, is it? It was in the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, but psionics was pretty extensively revised (for the better) between 3.0 and 3.5.

It is in one of the Dreamscarred Press books, which while nice, are definitely 3rd party.
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Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #34: September 11, 2012, 07:40:43 AM »
If we're assuming the persistant power feat (which exists in several places, the XPH being the most legal) then the psion gains some bonus due to being able to, using only the psion chassis, make a time stop last for 24 hours.
Persistent Power isn't in the XPH, is it? It was in the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, but psionics was pretty extensively revised (for the better) between 3.0 and 3.5.

It is in one of the Dreamscarred Press books, which while nice, are definitely 3rd party.

Damn, you're right about that. Could've sworn I saw it in the XPH. What are the actual rules about the 3.0 PH as far as grandfathering? Did it basically get completely erased by the XPH?

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #35: September 11, 2012, 07:57:15 AM »
Actually, I think the issue is with the fact that you have your real body trapped defenselessly in your own wall with someone who is most likely better at melee combat than you.  I read your post and had a "wtf" thing myself.
Yeah, that's what I thought SorO was getting at too. Being trapped inside a wall because of an NPF is bad enough, but doing so willingly and trapping a hostile being inside there with you? Psions aren't exactly built for that. The Sorcerer has several melee support options thanks to the Devs not realizing how bad a Sorcerer can be when in melee, which means you'd be trapping yourself with someone capable of killing you.

Using Fission to do this is a bad idea, since the Fission clone is even weaker. Never mind the potential for Fission to end because of the NPF.
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Offline Halinn

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #36: September 11, 2012, 09:27:37 AM »
There's also the fact that the sorcerer can counter that whole elaborate plan by saying "Celerity!"

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #37: September 11, 2012, 09:34:20 AM »
There's also the fact that the sorcerer can counter that whole elaborate plan by saying "Celerity!"
Anticipatory Strike is similar to Greater Celerity. There is also Synchronicity and all of the abuses that can go with it. So I don't think the sorcerer has any advantage in that regard.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 09:35:51 AM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline Halinn

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #38: September 11, 2012, 09:40:38 AM »
There's also the fact that the sorcerer can counter that whole elaborate plan by saying "Celerity!"
Anticipatory Strike is similar to Greater Celerity. There is also Synchronicity and all of the abuses that can go with it. So I don't think the sorcerer has any advantage in that regard.
Contingent celerities.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #39: September 11, 2012, 10:01:27 AM »
There's also the fact that the sorcerer can counter that whole elaborate plan by saying "Celerity!"
Anticipatory Strike is similar to Greater Celerity. There is also Synchronicity and all of the abuses that can go with it. So I don't think the sorcerer has any advantage in that regard.
Contingent celerities.
Psionic Contingency. :P The only advantage the sorcerer has here is Craft Contingent Spell, and since those are magic items presumably a psion could pay someone to give him some as well.
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