Author Topic: Monk without monk (Core build)  (Read 9011 times)

Offline Prime32

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Monk without monk (Core build)
« Topic Start: November 06, 2011, 08:41:20 AM »
Novelty build - just about everything a monk 20 gets, at higher power


LE Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Assassin 10/Blackguard 2/Dragon disciple 2
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Two-Weapon Fighting
Items: +1 adamantine gauntlet of speed, Monk's belt, Periapt of health, Ring of evasion, Ring of feather falling (optional)

Use dragon disciple to get two extra 4th-level assassin spell slots, and put dimension door in one of them. Death Attack emulates Quivering Palm. Your DD natural weapons, gauntlet and +16 BAB emulate flurry. The blackguard's Dark Blessing improves your saving throws, and CLW 1/day makes up for Wholeness of Body. Still rather MAD, unfortunately (needs 14 Int for assassin spells, plus Wis 11 and good Cha for blackguard). Oh, and rogue and assassin have UMD as class skills. ;)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 03:09:13 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Prime32

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #1: November 06, 2011, 08:41:47 AM »
Quote from: carnivore
how about this for a real Evil Monk without Monk ....

Supersized Monk-without-Monk

Human
Rogue 1/ ex-Paladin 1/ Blackguard 10/ Assassin 8

BAB +17
4th lvl Arcane Spells
4th lvl Divine Spells
8d6 Sneak Attack
Rebuke/Command Undead

Feats:
Power Attack(human Bonus)
1st lvl: Improved Unarmed Strike
3rd lvl: Cleave
6th lvl: Improved Sunder
9th lvl: Run
12th lvl: Stunning Fist
15th lvl: TWF
18th lvl: Imp TWF

items:
+1 adamantine gauntlet of speed
Monk's belt
Periapt of health
Ring of evasion
Ring of feather falling



 :D

Offline Sir Giacomo

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #2: November 13, 2011, 03:54:38 PM »
Hm.

quite possibly when resorting to use multiclassing, prestige classes, and 80,000+ gold (as the builds here), you can emulate quite a few classes in core without taking any levels in them, more with non-core rules.*

In this case, there are still some quite powerful class features of the monk that remain non-emulated
- the monk's unarmed damage is much higher than that of this build (2d10 eventually vs 1d8 of the monk's belt). This also means the plain vanilla monk is always ahead for all unarmed damage dice enhancer (size etc). Note also that sneak damage is situational and useless vs foes immune to such damage, which more, the higher the level. Ah, and the off-hand attacks get full STR bonus to damage for the monk.
- the monk's flurry of blows eventually comes without any penalties, so it beats even mutliattack or the two-weapon fighting feat tree. Also, you can add a haste effect (for instance, via boots of speed) or TWF feat tree to the plain vanilla monk, which the two builds presented cannot do (i.e. speed does not stack with haste).
- the monk has immunity to poison, which the two builds do not have
- the monk has improved evasion, which the two builds do not have
- the monk gets way faster than any of these two builds
- the monk has spell resistance, which the two builds do not have
- the monk has a 9th level spell effect (etheralness), which the two builds do not have (and I do not even count the fairly rare ability to have no age penalties here)
- the monk has permanent tongues, speak with animals and plants, which these two builds do not have.
- the monk has a lot more stunning fist attempts per day than these two builds
- the monk has four bonus feats without requirements, which these two builds do not have (and the class gets them at low levels)

That should about balance out the advantages outlined of the two builds above.

- Giacomo

*For instance, rogue without rogue levels and "getting about everything a rogue 20 gets, and more":
Ranger 4 (TWF tree), Bard 1, Assassin 7, Arcane Trickster 8
Magic items: skill-enhancers, ring of evasion, sword of subtlety
BAB 13 but spells to buff, 8d6 sneak plus subtelty bonus of +4 (and impromptu/death attacks besides); ranger, bard etc class boons (incl assassin/bard spellcasting) equivalent to rogue spc abilities etc
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 03:56:41 PM by Sir Giacomo »

Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #3: November 13, 2011, 06:25:53 PM »
please post a build that proves your point ... I would love to see it

then compare Directly the two side by side


thanks

 :D

Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #4: November 13, 2011, 07:14:00 PM »
lets add some things that were left out:
(click to show/hide)

what has been left out: ..... is this:

Class Abilities:
Trapfinding

Detect Good (Sp): At will, a blackguard can use detect good as a spell-like ability, duplicating the effect of the detect good spell.

Poison Use: Blackguards are skilled in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Dark Blessing (Su): A blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws.

Smite Good (Su):
(click to show/hide)

Aura of Despair (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, the blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a Ė2 penalty on all saving throws.

Command Undead (Su): When a blackguard reaches 3rd level, he gains the supernatural ability to command and rebuke undead. He commands undead as would a cleric of two levels lower.

Death Attack:
(click to show/hide)

Save Bonus against Poison: The assassin gains a natural saving throw bonus to all poisons gained at 2nd level that increases by +1 for every two additional levels the assassin gains.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
(click to show/hide)

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
(click to show/hide)

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind.


Arcane Spells known:
1st Level:
disguise self,
detect poison,
feather fall
jump
obscuring mist
sleep
true strike.
or pick from this list if Non-Core is allowed:
(click to show/hide)

2nd Level:
alter self,
catís grace
invisibility,

or pick from this list if Non-Core is allowed
(click to show/hide)

3rd Level:
false life,
magic circle against good,
misdirection,
nondetection
.
or pick from this list if Non-Core is allowed
(click to show/hide)

4th Level: 
dimension door
greater invisibility

or pick from this list if Non-Core is allowed
(click to show/hide)


Blackguard Spells to choose from every day:

1ST-LEVEL BLACKGUARD SPELLS
cause fear,
corrupt weapon,
cure light wounds,
doom,
inflict light wounds,
magic weapon,
summon monster I
or pick from this list if Non-Core is allowed
(click to show/hide)

2ND-LEVEL BLACKGUARD SPELLS
bullís strength,
cure moderate wounds,
darkness,
death knell,
eagleís splendor,
inflict moderate wounds,
shatter,
summon monster II*.
or pick from this list if Non-Core is allowed
(click to show/hide)

3RD-LEVEL BLACKGUARD SPELL
contagion,
cure serious wounds,
deeper darkness,
inflict serious wounds,
protection from elements,
summon monster III*.
or pick from this list if Non-Core is allowed
(click to show/hide)

4TH-LEVEL BLACKGUARD SPELLS
cure critical wounds,
freedom of movement,

inflict critical wounds,
poison,
summon monster IV*.
or pick from this list if Non-Core is allowed
(click to show/hide)




that should take care of the Advantages that you Claim the monk has over this build
 :D
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 03:20:25 PM by carnivore »

Offline zioth

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #5: November 14, 2011, 01:25:21 PM »
Plus, your fake monk has to use more than half his item slots pretending to be a monk. The real monk has all his slots (and wealth) free. Also, as Sir Giacomo pointed out, your combination really can't do what a monk can do. Sure, it makes up for it in other ways, but you can't call it a monk.

And as long as we're assuming large amounts of throw-away wealth:

Supersized Druid-without-Druid:
Monk16/Expert4
Expert class skills: UMD and Handle Animal
Equipment:
- Portable Hole
- Enough staves for 500 charges of each spell (maxed-out UMD)
- Several extra staves of Shapechange

Since you think that Improved Unarmed Strike is equivalent to a monk's 2d10 unarmed damage, you'll have no problem with me saying that training an animal using Handle Animal is equivalent to an animal companion.

This "druid" can cast every spell on the druid's list, has an animal companion, and can change shape many times per day. In addition, this character makes eight attacks per round (with the TWF tree), does far more melee damage than a normal wildshaped druid, can overcome adamantine DR inside an antimatic field, and has a much better reflex save, improved evasion and SR.

Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #6: November 14, 2011, 02:05:47 PM »
Plus, your fake monk has to use more than half his item slots pretending to be a monk. The real monk has all his slots (and wealth) free.
Slots are Irrelavant.... since you can combine magic items in a single Body Slot

Quote
Also, as Sir Giacomo pointed out, your combination really can't do what a monk can do. Sure, it makes up for it in other ways, but you can't call it a monk.
thats right ... what I made can actually Survive Combat and Contribute to a party in a meaningful way, many Monks find it hard to do those things

Quote
And as long as we're assuming large amounts of throw-away wealth:
actually a 20th lvl Character .... which is what I posted, has 760000gp... and I only spent 1/11th of his entire Wealth to make a Monk irrelavant, since this character can do all he does and even Better

Quote
Since you think that Improved Unarmed Strike is equivalent to a monk's 2d10 unarmed damage,
No, I did not say that at all, that is ridiculous ..... how ever I said that the build I made can outperform a Monk build in combat ... notice:

Monk 20 : BAB +15, Unarmed Damage 2d10(11 average)
Full attack with Flurry: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5
If all Hit = Total Damage 55 points

My Fake Monk: BAB +17, Unarmed Damage 1d8+8d6SA(32 average)
Full Attack with TWF+Imp TWF+Speed: +15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+0
If all hit = Total Damage 224

how can I make sure all are Sneak Attacks..... Greater Invisiblity


hows that .... thought provoking  :plotting


 :D
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 03:40:10 PM by carnivore »

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #7: November 14, 2011, 02:12:19 PM »
Why is the fake monk optimized, but the Monk not?
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #8: November 14, 2011, 02:12:53 PM »
they have not provided one for comparison ... see reply #3

 :D
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 02:15:43 PM by carnivore »

Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #9: November 14, 2011, 02:14:59 PM »

*For instance, rogue without rogue levels and "getting about everything a rogue 20 gets, and more":
Ranger 4 (TWF tree), Bard 1, Assassin 7, Arcane Trickster 8
Magic items: skill-enhancers, ring of evasion, sword of subtlety
BAB 13 but spells to buff, 8d6 sneak plus subtelty bonus of +4 (and impromptu/death attacks besides); ranger, bard etc class boons (incl assassin/bard spellcasting) equivalent to rogue spc abilities etc

this .. I like .... very nice

 :D

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #10: November 14, 2011, 02:17:37 PM »
they have not provided one for comparison ... see reply #3

 :D
So that gives you the right to compare your build to some mediocre Monk?
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #11: November 14, 2011, 02:19:24 PM »
I am comparing what I Provided to what they have provided .... the burden of Proof is thiers, they made the Statements without any "Evidence" to support it


however you are more than welcome to provide an "Optimized Monk build" for comparison

 :D

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #12: November 14, 2011, 02:23:39 PM »
If you don't have a counter example then what are you even comparing your build to? If you want to be fair you should either assume at least basic, staple optimization on the Monks part, or not compare to non-existing builds.

Quote
however you are more than welcome to provide an "Optimized Monk build" for comparison
I would gladly do it if my optimization skills were at least mediocre.
And if not for the Core only restriction, I could find some decent build on internet.

All I'm saying is: if you ask your opposition for a build, you could wait for the build and not compare your optimized build with some horrible Monk. That's bit dishonest and unfair.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 02:29:11 PM by ImperatorK »
Magic is for weaklings.

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Offline Prime32

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #13: November 14, 2011, 02:58:44 PM »
Why is the fake monk optimized, but the Monk not?
Well my fake monk definitely wasn't optimised for power, just for similarity (which is a pretty stupid thing to do outside of a thought exercise) - if I wanted strength then why would I spend feats to qualify for blackguard over paladin, and wield a gauntlet rather than a greatsword? That I ended up with a +16/+16/+14/+14/+14/+11/+6/+1 attack routine (+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1 if you use TWF, better if you take ITWF/GTWF) compared to the monk's +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 was unintentional.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 03:14:02 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Tshern

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #14: November 14, 2011, 03:21:06 PM »
I like the core build of carnivore's (big surprise there). However, I would still like to see a pure Monk build to compare it with and I assume Sir Giacomo has a few in store.
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #15: November 14, 2011, 03:28:27 PM »
I like the core build of carnivore's (big surprise there). However, I would still like to see a pure Monk build to compare it with and I assume Sir Giacomo has a few in store.
You're kidding me, right?  I haven't seen a build out of him yet that doesn't either fight the class or blatantly cheat.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #16: November 14, 2011, 03:34:01 PM »
I like the core build of carnivore's (big surprise there). However, I would still like to see a pure Monk build to compare it with and I assume Sir Giacomo has a few in store.
You're kidding me, right?  I haven't seen a build out of him yet that doesn't either fight the class or blatantly cheat.

New forums, maybe a new leaf turned, who knows?^^

I almost wish I actually liked monk so that I could take part in these builds ;)

Offline carnivore

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #17: November 14, 2011, 03:39:15 PM »
actually I do have several Monk Builds that are adequate .... but I do have an Awesome example of a "Benchmark" Monk build, I will post when I get home later tonite

 :D

Offline Lycanthromancer

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #18: November 14, 2011, 03:50:34 PM »
The only monk I've seen that I liked involved a throwing/distance necklace of natural attacks and lots and lots of ACFs.

Granted, that was pretty damned nice. But still.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Monk without monk (Core build)
« Reply #19: November 14, 2011, 04:34:54 PM »
actually I do have several Monk Builds that are adequate .... but I do have an Awesome example of a "Benchmark" Monk build, I will post when I get home later tonite

 :D

 :o ... NO ... DON'T ... let this thread play out, for the entertainment.


That Monk can be the "next" Monk thread.

 :D (oh sorry that's your smiley)
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