Author Topic: Spellcasting nerf  (Read 2889 times)

Online Prime32

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #20: November 12, 2011, 07:58:17 AM »
I'd do more with shields, but that's a topic in itself.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #21: November 12, 2011, 08:24:11 AM »
What about the rest of my questions?
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Online Prime32

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #22: November 12, 2011, 08:48:21 AM »
Quote
If you take damage while casting a spell you lose the spell automatically, unless that damage is backlash from the spell itself. Casting defensively does not exist.
What about making Combat Casting a feat that enables defensive casting (instead of giving a bonus)?
I considered it, but then it might become a feat tax on the level of Natural Spell.

Quote
Quote
Damage caps do not exist, and HD caps increase to your caster level if higher than the original. If a spell had multiple HD caps, the highest one is equal to your caster level and other caps remain the same distance from it. (eg. if a spell had caps of 5HD, 6HD and 8HD then casting it at CL20 would result in caps of 17HD, 18HD and 20HD)
Does this also concern Planar Ally/Planar Binding/Polymorph/etc. spells?
You're seriously asking that in a thread called "Spellcasting nerf"? :P

Offline Agita

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #23: November 12, 2011, 08:53:31 AM »
Quote
Quote
Damage caps do not exist, and HD caps increase to your caster level if higher than the original. If a spell had multiple HD caps, the highest one is equal to your caster level and other caps remain the same distance from it. (eg. if a spell had caps of 5HD, 6HD and 8HD then casting it at CL20 would result in caps of 17HD, 18HD and 20HD)
Does this also concern Planar Ally/Planar Binding/Polymorph/etc. spells?
You're seriously asking that in a thread called "Spellcasting nerf"? :P
It's a rather valid question, given that it's a buff to spells that would otherwise become obsolete eventually. As written, yes, it would, meaning Lesser Planar Binding would supplant the other two.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #24: November 12, 2011, 08:58:16 AM »
Quote
I considered it, but then it might become a feat tax on the level of Natural Spell.
Do you ban Natural Spell, BTW?

Quote
You're seriously asking that in a thread called "Spellcasting nerf"?
Well, as it stands now, it does concern them, because they're spells with HD caps. And what Agita said.
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Online Prime32

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #25: November 12, 2011, 09:12:04 AM »
Whether I ban Natural Spell depends on the game, but if every character has to take the same feat that's poor design. Maybe Combat Casting could affect spells based on your BAB, so it's more useful for half-casters/gishes and gives you more reason to use low-level spells.

Planar binding can easily break the game as it is, and it's unaffected by the increased casting time or vulnerability meaning that these rules make the lesser version stronger. Plenty of DMs ban it already though or have gentleman's agreements limiting its use.

I'd say remove the lesser and greater versions. If you're going to allow the standard version then you should know the bag-of-worms already.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 09:20:32 AM by Prime32 »

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #26: November 12, 2011, 09:16:11 AM »
I'd do more with shields, but that's a topic in itself.
Sorry about that.


Whether I ban Natural Spell depends on the game, but if every character has to take the same feat that's poor design. Maybe Combat Casting could affect spells of a level based on your BAB, so it's more useful for half-casters and gishes...

Planar binding can easily break the game as it is, and it's unaffected by the increased casting time or vulnerability meaning that these rules make the lesser version stronger. Plenty of DMs ban it already though or have gentleman's agreements limiting its use.

I'd say remove the lesser and greater versions. If you're going to allow the standard version then you should know the bag-of-worms already.
Consider making them both metamagic feats. I've seen the idea tossed around of making Natural Spell a +1 adjustment metamagic feat. Once you figure out what Combat Casting does, you could take a similar approach.

Then, it's not so much of a feat tax, because there's another cost to using it, and it's a valid approach to use it with the extra cost or not use it at all.
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Online Prime32

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #27: November 12, 2011, 09:22:08 AM »
What about this?

Combat Casting [General]
Benefit: When casting a 0th-level spell you may choose to cast defensively. For every 3 points of BAB this benefit applies to spells of one level higher.


Compare the effects on wizards, bards, duskblades and paladins.

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #28: November 12, 2011, 09:44:47 AM »
Sounds pretty good, but since we're at it, shouldn't the ranger/paladin be able to cast their 1st level spells as swift actions?

Online Prime32

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #29: November 12, 2011, 10:01:27 AM »
Sounds pretty good, but since we're at it, shouldn't the ranger/paladin be able to cast their 1st level spells as swift actions?
Free Battle Blessing? Sure, why not.

EDIT: How would you feel about lv9 casters getting 1-round casting times, lv6 casters having normal times, and lv4 casters Quickening everything?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 11:02:59 AM by Prime32 »

Offline SneeR

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #30: November 12, 2011, 10:54:28 AM »
What about this?

Combat Casting [General]
Benefit: When casting a 0th-level spell you may choose to cast defensively. For every 3 points of BAB this benefit applies to spells of one level higher.


Compare the effects on wizards, bards, duskblades and paladins.

This is fascinating! Even the 15 BAB, 9th-level spellcaster gish couldn't get more than 5th level spells cast defensively...
Of course, the "natural" gishes don't generaly have about 5th, maybe sixth-level spells anyways... And by 18th level, those spells can be cast defensively. So you can almost cast defensively every time you get a new spell level!

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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #31: November 12, 2011, 12:01:40 PM »
EDIT: How would you feel about lv9 casters getting 1-round casting times, lv6 casters having normal times, and lv4 casters Quickening everything?
That could work. You'll end up with some weird edge cases, like Wizards and Bards getting Glitterdust at the same time and Bards casting quicker, but for the most part, Bards are still behind on power, versatility, and staying power.
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Offline Havok4

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #32: November 12, 2011, 01:30:57 PM »
Those rules would greatly level the playing field between the various caster types. Although full spellcasters will still rock out of combat.
 How about instead of combat casting being a feat that is just the new mechanics for casting defensively, because otherwise it might seem to be a must have feat for anyone who casts spells. Although full spellcasters will still rock out of combat.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #33: November 22, 2011, 03:24:16 AM »
I just realized. you don't have to remove Planar binding or Planar Ally.
Quote
Damage caps do not exist, and HD caps increase to your caster level if higher than the original. If a spell had multiple HD caps, the highest one is equal to your caster level and other caps remain the same distance from it (eg. if a spell had caps of 5HD, 6HD and 8HD then casting it at CL20 would result in caps of 17HD, 18HD and 20HD). Lesser planar binding and Greater planar binding do not exist.
:D
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #34: November 22, 2011, 07:12:25 PM »
If bards can keep their normal casting time, then suddenly these rules make them the ultimate party nukers!  They don't have the 1 round casting time penalty, no damage cap, double damage...  Sure they don't get many nuke spells, but they are strictly superior in every way compared to full casters now.
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Offline Agita

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #35: November 23, 2011, 01:18:13 AM »
I just realized. you don't have to remove Planar binding or Planar Ally.
Quote
Damage caps do not exist, and HD caps increase to your caster level if higher than the original. If a spell had multiple HD caps, the highest one is equal to your caster level and other caps remain the same distance from it (eg. if a spell had caps of 5HD, 6HD and 8HD then casting it at CL20 would result in caps of 17HD, 18HD and 20HD). Lesser planar binding and Greater planar binding do not exist.
:D
I'm not sure what you mean here. Elaborate?
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #36: November 23, 2011, 06:24:46 AM »
If bards can keep their normal casting time, then suddenly these rules make them the ultimate party nukers!  They don't have the 1 round casting time penalty, no damage cap, double damage...  Sure they don't get many nuke spells, but they are strictly superior in every way compared to full casters now.
Also, they still pick up a few good spells (like Glitterdust) at about the same time that full casters do. So as low level casters, they might come off as a bit stronger, but fewer times per day.

As they gain levels, the spells that other casters pick up will out pace the bard quickly, so it becomes a balancing act of fewer spells of lower level as standard actions vs better spells and more spells at a much slower casting time.



At the table, the effect I'd expect to see is full casters finding ways to hide themselves or otherwise set up ambushes and try to drop their best, most debilitating spell at the onset of combat, to make future castings easier. For example, setting up with Invisibility and/or flight and opening with Solid Fog/Black Tentacles would probably be optimal. If your opponents stay tied up for 2-3 rounds, you can cast your other spells with impunity (or close to it).
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #37: November 23, 2011, 07:15:35 AM »
I just realized. you don't have to remove Planar binding or Planar Ally.
Quote
Damage caps do not exist, and HD caps increase to your caster level if higher than the original. If a spell had multiple HD caps, the highest one is equal to your caster level and other caps remain the same distance from it (eg. if a spell had caps of 5HD, 6HD and 8HD then casting it at CL20 would result in caps of 17HD, 18HD and 20HD). Lesser planar binding and Greater planar binding do not exist.
:D
I'm not sure what you mean here. Elaborate?
Where's the facepalm smillie when you need it... I saw the "damage caps" and I thought that my previous comment was wrong, but I also missed the "HD caps" that's in the same sentence. Geez, am I stupid. :(
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Spellcasting nerf
« Reply #38: November 23, 2011, 01:13:31 PM »
What about Lesser and Greater Planar Ally? Also removed? And the Dragon Ally (or whatever it's called) spells?
And there's a little potential issue with the full-round spells. I'd have to do research, but I can imagine that there are spells that would be quite good as swift action spells. I know that full-round action casting nerfs spellcasters, but what if a spells effect lasts the whole round and benefits the casters each action? For example adds some effect or more damage to all attacks? The caster (or, what's more optimal, gish) would benefit from the spells effect on a full attack.
So in other words: Caster powerups one round and then unleashes the spells full potential full attacking.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 01:23:35 PM by ImperatorK »
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